Episode 177- Ty Gagne Joins us to talk about The Lions of Winter - Part 1 of 2

[00:00:43] to the Sounds Like A Search And Rescue Podcast, where we discuss all things related to hiking and search and rescue in the White Mountains of New Hampshire.

[00:00:52] Here are your hosts, Mike and Stump.

[00:00:55] I actually made it into the Woodpecker Studio. This is the first time I've done this, Ty.

[00:01:27] Really?

[00:01:28] Yeah, in the actual Woodpecker Studio North.

[00:01:31] No kidding.

[00:01:32] Yeah, yeah.

[00:01:33] It's a little uncomfortable, I'll be honest.

[00:01:35] The last time I was here, I think you were virtual.

[00:01:38] Yes.

[00:01:38] And it was in the basement.

[00:01:39] Yeah, that's right.

[00:01:40] It's come a long way.

[00:01:42] Now we're in the, I don't know, what is this? The dining room?

[00:01:48] Stump's not a light person, I've noticed. He's got a very dark motif here.

[00:01:53] Yeah, and self-service isn't great, so I'm in a dark basement, low light.

[00:01:59] We may not get out.

[00:02:00] Yeah, you may end up in the basement.

[00:02:04] The old studio.

[00:02:05] I know.

[00:02:06] That's great.

[00:02:07] Anyway, he's locked the cats, but it's been a while since we've actually recorded and

[00:02:11] I know winter's coming because the great snowshoe post hole social media drama has kicked off

[00:02:19] full-time this week.

[00:02:20] There's been multiple, multiple like lectures.

[00:02:24] Yeah, like bring your snowshoes.

[00:02:26] Oh yeah, yeah.

[00:02:26] And some people are asking like, what's a good place to go hiking because I don't have

[00:02:29] snowshoes?

[00:02:30] And a lot of times people will say like, well you shouldn't be hiking if you don't have snowshoes.

[00:02:34] And other people are saying that's not inclusive.

[00:02:37] So I don't know, Stump, do you have an opinion?

[00:02:40] Well, that's an interesting point.

[00:02:42] Inclusivity?

[00:02:42] Yes.

[00:02:42] Access to snowshoes?

[00:02:44] Well, I mean...

[00:02:44] There must be some options out there.

[00:02:46] Yeah, but if you don't have them, you should still be able to go hiking.

[00:02:48] Oh, I totally agree.

[00:02:50] A hundred percent.

[00:02:51] So you're in favor of post holes then?

[00:02:53] A hundred percent.

[00:02:54] Okay, well, it's people like you that cause injuries then.

[00:02:57] Right.

[00:02:58] You can do miraculous things without snowshoes because you've got the monorail underneath

[00:03:04] that layer.

[00:03:05] Yeah.

[00:03:05] If you step right, you'll be all right.

[00:03:06] I just think that if you're smart, you'll just wait for the locals to clear out the trails

[00:03:12] and then you can move on.

[00:03:14] But yeah.

[00:03:15] So is it deep enough for snowshoes right now?

[00:03:18] It actually is.

[00:03:19] I'll talk about this in a little bit more detail, but we went out to the Ossipy.

[00:03:22] So I did a hike last week and my whole plan was like, let me find a place that doesn't

[00:03:28] have a lot of snow because I didn't want to deal with snowshoes.

[00:03:31] But we got up to about 2,200 feet and it became pretty exhausting.

[00:03:37] It was about six, seven inches of snow heading up to Turtleback Mountain.

[00:03:40] Mm-hmm.

[00:03:41] So we just turned around and came back down.

[00:03:43] Gotcha.

[00:03:44] Gotcha.

[00:03:44] So you need the snowshoes.

[00:03:45] But yeah, it's kicked off full time.

[00:03:46] It's a lot of arguing and sniping on social media.

[00:03:51] But there's also a lot of positive feedback about your new book, Ty.

[00:03:53] So there's that.

[00:03:55] That's good to be here.

[00:03:56] Yes.

[00:03:57] Thank you.

[00:03:57] Yes.

[00:03:58] Yeah.

[00:03:58] Pretty impressive.

[00:04:00] Exciting.

[00:04:00] Exciting time.

[00:04:01] All right.

[00:04:01] So welcome to episode 177 of the Sounds Like a Search and Rescue podcast.

[00:04:06] This week, writer Ty Gagney joins us to discuss the release of his new book, The Lions of Winter,

[00:04:12] the story of a search and rescue of two young climbers on Mount Washington, Hugh Herr and

[00:04:18] Jeff Batzer.

[00:04:19] The book chronicles the events of this multi-day rescue that took place in January of 1982,

[00:04:24] focusing on the men and women involved in the rescue, including Albert Dow, a young member

[00:04:30] of the rescue team that lost his life in an avalanche below the Lionhead area.

[00:04:35] So to start the show off before we get into the deep dive with Ty, where you got some additional

[00:04:41] stories to cover.

[00:04:42] So there's forest road updates.

[00:04:44] Gates are closing because winter's here.

[00:04:47] We've got the first avalanche of the year on Tuckerman Ravine.

[00:04:50] The countdown to winter is here.

[00:04:53] A sinkhole swallows a grandma in Pennsylvania and a cat is involved in that situation.

[00:04:59] So hiking related.

[00:05:00] Yeah, not really.

[00:05:01] She's still a blessing.

[00:05:01] It's a pretty scary story.

[00:05:03] Yeah, we'll.

[00:05:04] I'm not sure.

[00:05:05] I didn't look for an update on that one, but I have the, I have the story from yesterday

[00:05:08] and then plus we've got a couple of recent search and rescue events that we were going

[00:05:13] to cover here.

[00:05:13] So get ready, get comfortable.

[00:05:15] It's going to be a great show.

[00:05:16] We're excited to talk to Ty.

[00:05:17] I'm Mike.

[00:05:18] And I'm Stomp.

[00:05:20] Let's get stomp.

[00:05:35] I'm Christina from Wild Raven Endurance Coaching.

[00:05:38] I work with athletes of all levels from hikers to triathletes, helping you reach your

[00:05:43] goals with personalized guidance.

[00:05:44] With years of experience hiking, mountain biking and trail running across New England.

[00:05:50] I also have a deep knowledge of the New Hampshire 4,000 footers and the surrounding trails.

[00:05:55] Whether you're a beginner hiker or a seasoned athlete, I'll guide you towards your goals,

[00:06:00] reducing injury risk and improving your performance through smart, tailored coaching.

[00:06:05] Are you looking to transition from hiking to mountain running?

[00:06:08] I'm here to make that journey easier too.

[00:06:11] My approach combines strength training, mindfulness and life balance on and off the trail.

[00:06:17] Let me help you find more joy in your sport while getting stronger and healthier along the way.

[00:06:22] Visit www.coaching.christinafulsick.com and start your adventure today.

[00:06:32] It's a little weird.

[00:06:33] I have to like, like, so we're just so that everyone a little inside baseball.

[00:06:38] Typically, we don't wait around for all these audio drops and things like that.

[00:06:42] But Stomp just puts them in magically at the end.

[00:06:45] But, um.

[00:06:46] Hold the ball game.

[00:06:47] Yeah.

[00:06:47] Now I got to get my timing down.

[00:06:48] So I'm all, I'm all discombobulated.

[00:06:51] So anyway.

[00:06:52] That's why in the script it says, be aware of the drops.

[00:06:55] Yes.

[00:06:56] Yeah.

[00:06:56] So anyway, but, uh, welcome Ty.

[00:06:58] So Stomp put Daphne and the other cats away.

[00:07:01] You're allergic to cats, right?

[00:07:02] I have been.

[00:07:03] And I think we don't want to test it, right?

[00:07:05] Let's not.

[00:07:06] I think it was pretty good last time.

[00:07:08] Yeah.

[00:07:08] Yeah.

[00:07:09] I actually had a photograph with her.

[00:07:10] Exactly.

[00:07:11] Which you just posted.

[00:07:12] Yeah.

[00:07:13] I've been like coughing a little bit.

[00:07:15] So maybe I'm allergic.

[00:07:17] Maybe.

[00:07:17] Could be.

[00:07:18] You don't have any cats or dogs, right?

[00:07:19] No.

[00:07:20] No, no.

[00:07:20] Oh, that's right.

[00:07:20] Oh, can I, can I tell you a story?

[00:07:22] Oh, I wonder if my brother and sister-in-law listen.

[00:07:24] Probably not.

[00:07:25] Probably not.

[00:07:26] Like they do listen, but like, so I've, I've been trying to get my wife to get a dog forever.

[00:07:30] And my brother and sister-in-law, they have these two, they like have, have a suit.

[00:07:35] I forget what they're called.

[00:07:36] They're like these little dogs and they don't shed.

[00:07:38] Cavapoo.

[00:07:39] Yeah.

[00:07:39] Something like that.

[00:07:40] And they don't shed.

[00:07:42] And, um, they are like hypoallergenic or something like that.

[00:07:47] So I was like, Oh, bring the dogs over.

[00:07:50] So I was like, Oh, my wife's going to love these dogs and maybe I can convince her to

[00:07:53] let me get a dog.

[00:07:54] So the dogs are over for a couple of hours.

[00:07:56] We got food and everything was fine.

[00:07:58] And, um, in my mind I was just like, Oh, well maybe she'll like the dog so much that

[00:08:04] she'll.

[00:08:05] So sure enough, like my brother and sister-in-law leave and my, my niece leaves.

[00:08:08] And then we go into the other room and the dogs shit on the floor in the bedroom.

[00:08:16] And my wife is like, no, never again.

[00:08:18] That's it.

[00:08:19] But I haven't told my brother yet.

[00:08:20] So hopefully he doesn't listen to this and then, yeah, hopefully he doesn't listen to

[00:08:25] this and go like, why didn't you tell me?

[00:08:27] Cause they'll be mortified.

[00:08:29] So anyway.

[00:08:30] Yeah.

[00:08:30] But hopefully he's listening now.

[00:08:32] Exactly.

[00:08:32] Matt, you dog shit in my bed, bedroom, not the bed.

[00:08:36] So.

[00:08:36] And it's hilarious.

[00:08:37] Well, it's either that or the puke everywhere with the cats.

[00:08:40] So yes.

[00:08:41] Oh, by the way, speaking of Daphne, she let you borrow that little cat laser.

[00:08:45] Laser pointer.

[00:08:46] Thank you.

[00:08:46] Yeah.

[00:08:47] Just to give people the setting here, we're in the, what is this?

[00:08:51] The kitchen or dining room.

[00:08:52] It's sort of the same thing really.

[00:08:54] And we have two giant maps in front of us at about four by three feet.

[00:08:57] And we're hoping to use those to capture this story in some detail.

[00:09:03] It looks like a law and order, like detective room in here.

[00:09:07] So it's good times.

[00:09:09] But Ty, welcome.

[00:09:10] So, um, we did, so Mrs. Stomp has left.

[00:09:14] She went to like, um, go hang out with a friend, but she put together a little recipe for us

[00:09:20] based on your most recent book.

[00:09:22] So Stomp, what's the recipe?

[00:09:23] Uh, well, since we're your biggest fans, it was page 38.

[00:09:29] It was the climbers special.

[00:09:31] So this is a mixture of pasta, tuna, and then cream of mushroom soup.

[00:09:37] Right.

[00:09:37] I'm sure if you read the book, then you'll, uh, understand what that is.

[00:09:42] But Mike refused to eat it.

[00:09:43] Yeah, I don't like tuna fish.

[00:09:45] I had a bowl.

[00:09:46] It was absolutely fantastic.

[00:09:47] Was it?

[00:09:48] Oh, yeah.

[00:09:49] And we will have you take some home to the missus.

[00:09:52] Thank you.

[00:09:54] He's going to throw that out the window on one on one.

[00:09:58] Yeah.

[00:09:58] Uh, 49 maybe.

[00:10:00] Yeah.

[00:10:00] Mrs. Stomp was very like, she wanted to make sure she, we understood that it was not her recipe.

[00:10:05] Exactly.

[00:10:06] I like how you said it was delicious though, knowing she's probably going to listen to this.

[00:10:09] Right?

[00:10:10] Oh yeah.

[00:10:11] And the charcuterie board.

[00:10:12] I mean, I know it's great.

[00:10:14] Yeah.

[00:10:14] And Mike brought some chocolates, but they've been broken into like some I'm missing from

[00:10:18] the chocolate.

[00:10:19] Yeah.

[00:10:19] My daughter Caroline grabbed him before she grabbed one.

[00:10:22] So anyway,

[00:10:23] what can you do?

[00:10:24] What can you do?

[00:10:24] But that's good.

[00:10:24] So Ty, you've been busy with the, um, with the release of the book.

[00:10:28] And, um, I think I've saw, I saw that you had a big event where your name was up on the

[00:10:34] marquee.

[00:10:35] You had like 300 people and then you had a smaller event today.

[00:10:38] So what, what have you been up to?

[00:10:39] So Tuesday night was, um, a signing at Gibson's and it ultimately ended up across the street

[00:10:45] at the stage.

[00:10:46] Um, which is a partners with the bank of New Hampshire is owned by them.

[00:10:51] Um, and it was, I was in conversation with Laura Kanoi who used to be the host of the,

[00:10:56] um, the exchange on NHPR.

[00:10:58] And it was, it was incredible.

[00:11:02] Um, the, there was so much positivity in the room.

[00:11:06] Um, it, there was energy.

[00:11:10] Albert's sister, uh, attended and, and spoke beautifully about her late brother.

[00:11:15] Um, took a few minutes to do that.

[00:11:17] There was a lot of, um, saluting first responders for their service, whether search and rescue

[00:11:24] or in an urban environment.

[00:11:25] And it was, it was unbelievable to be there.

[00:11:28] It was really special.

[00:11:29] And I, and if anyone who's listening went and was not able to get in, I'm, you know,

[00:11:34] I feel, I feel bad about that, but they had to shut that down because of the occupancy.

[00:11:39] Yeah.

[00:11:39] Well, I think that this is sort of like the, the alternative.

[00:11:42] Now they can listen to this in a little bit more detail.

[00:11:45] They'll get more information here for sure.

[00:11:46] Yeah, exactly.

[00:11:47] So, um, cool.

[00:11:49] But that's awesome.

[00:11:50] So, um, and I appreciate you coming in.

[00:11:51] I know you've been busy and you're probably tired, but we'll, uh, we'll try to try to

[00:11:55] keep this high energy for you.

[00:11:58] Yeah, no, I was in it's free this afternoon signing.

[00:12:00] And so I'm pretty energized.

[00:12:02] Awesome.

[00:12:02] So I won't be, I didn't ask you to sign any books, but stomp immediately hit you up.

[00:12:06] Yeah.

[00:12:06] Make some coffee too, by the way.

[00:12:08] All right.

[00:12:08] Yeah.

[00:12:08] You let me know.

[00:12:09] Okay.

[00:12:10] Well, you're not shutting down, but there are forest roads that are shutting down, Ty.

[00:12:14] It's that time of the year.

[00:12:15] So we've pulled, um, a little bit of a list here so that people could, uh, could get a

[00:12:20] heads up.

[00:12:21] So basically this is the time of the year where, um, everything is shutting down.

[00:12:25] So sandwich notch road, um, I think is, is shutting down.

[00:12:30] Nash stream.

[00:12:31] I think Zeeland is shut down and then, um, Sawyer rivers are always been shut down.

[00:12:36] And what's that road that goes out to, um, Mount Hale?

[00:12:40] What is that called?

[00:12:41] Hale?

[00:12:42] That, that would be, um, Sawyer, right?

[00:12:45] No, Sawyer and Zeeland, Zeeland road.

[00:12:47] Zeeland is another one that goes out to Hale.

[00:12:49] I forget what it's called, but yeah, they're all, um, they're all shutting down.

[00:12:52] So I think you just need to factor that in, especially, um, if you're going up to Zeeland,

[00:12:57] that one.

[00:12:57] Yeah.

[00:12:58] Nash stream is close too, I believe.

[00:12:59] Yep.

[00:13:00] That's way up there anyway.

[00:13:01] So it's that time of the year and you've been getting snow up here.

[00:13:05] Uh, yeah.

[00:13:06] Pretty consistently.

[00:13:06] Yeah.

[00:13:07] Thankfully.

[00:13:07] Yep.

[00:13:08] Yeah.

[00:13:08] Yeah.

[00:13:08] It's a different vibe than the last two or three years.

[00:13:11] It's definitely settling in.

[00:13:13] Yeah.

[00:13:14] And we pulled some new stories, so we'll, we'll give a rundown of some of these, but one

[00:13:17] of the news stories is related to the snow and Tuckerman.

[00:13:20] Um, there was a video on WMUR of a snowboarder that had been, um, going down Tuckerman and

[00:13:26] they triggered a little bit of a small avalanche.

[00:13:28] So I don't know if there's enough snow pack to really cause too much danger, but, uh, this

[00:13:32] was a little bit of a trigger.

[00:13:34] So there is, um, you know, there is enough snow out there for people to be aware of.

[00:13:40] And then just as a reminder, the Eastern Snow and Avalanche workshop is, uh, is coming

[00:13:45] up.

[00:13:46] So it's live and in-person presentations that's on Saturday, December 14th.

[00:13:50] So the day after the show, um, will drop.

[00:13:53] And that is at the, um, Freiberg Academy.

[00:13:57] Freiberg Academy.

[00:13:58] So it's the Eastman performing out.

[00:14:00] So it's like, it's not on the main road on 302, but if you just take a right, right

[00:14:04] before you get into Freiberg Academy and it's going to be over there.

[00:14:07] So it's from 830 to 530 and, um, general admission tickets are available as well as, uh, discounts

[00:14:13] for student military and search and rescue.

[00:14:15] So definitely worth checking out.

[00:14:17] And if you are going to Freiberg Academy, just a heads up before you get there, you should

[00:14:22] definitely pull over as about a half a mile before Freiberg Academy.

[00:14:26] There's a, um, uh, little coffee shop there that is called the Fairgrounds, which is in

[00:14:32] an old bank and it's pretty cool.

[00:14:34] So they've converted this bank into a coffee shop and a smoothie place and you can go into

[00:14:39] the old bank vault and check it out.

[00:14:40] And then it's got free wifi and everything.

[00:14:43] So it's worth checking out if you're going up into that area.

[00:14:46] Excellent.

[00:14:48] So little, little inside tip for Freiberg stomp.

[00:14:52] Yeah.

[00:14:52] I've gone to ISAR, uh, once a couple of years back and it was a great time.

[00:14:55] A lot of great speakers, um, important information.

[00:15:00] All right.

[00:15:00] And then, oh, go ahead.

[00:15:01] And no one was injured in that avalanche.

[00:15:04] No, no.

[00:15:05] Which I think, so I think the silver lining there is that it's happening early in the season.

[00:15:10] It's kind of gotten out there through the media.

[00:15:12] I saw it on Boston media as well.

[00:15:15] And, and that can only, you know, raise awareness.

[00:15:18] So I think that's a good thing.

[00:15:20] Yeah.

[00:15:21] Yeah, definitely.

[00:15:21] You know, speaking of Boston media, I gave stomp a heads up on this.

[00:15:24] I don't know what's going on, but the Boston Globe's writing an article about, um, hiking

[00:15:29] and search and rescue because they reached out to me and somehow the writer found my, um,

[00:15:34] search and rescue data and she wanted to use it in the article.

[00:15:37] She didn't give me much info.

[00:15:39] I just said, yeah, you can use it.

[00:15:40] Just credit the podcast.

[00:15:41] So I'll keep an eye out to see what they're writing and whatever comes out.

[00:15:45] I'll be interested to see what, what, what's up with that.

[00:15:47] Yeah.

[00:15:47] That's, that's pretty huge.

[00:15:48] Yeah.

[00:15:49] Good for you, man.

[00:15:49] Your reach, your reach.

[00:15:51] Yeah.

[00:15:52] I was like, yeah, you can credit me.

[00:15:54] I'm like, make sure you include stomp in that.

[00:15:58] Oh boy.

[00:15:59] Anyway, but, um, all right.

[00:16:01] So I've missed, I missed one thing here.

[00:16:04] So the reckless full conditions update.

[00:16:05] So we did that event a couple of weeks ago and to date that's raised $3,000, which is

[00:16:12] pretty cool for the New Hampshire outdoor council.

[00:16:14] Yeah.

[00:16:14] It's just a start couple of weeks out.

[00:16:16] Yeah.

[00:16:16] Love it.

[00:16:16] It's amazing.

[00:16:17] Yeah.

[00:16:18] Yeah.

[00:16:18] And it was a good crowd, fun event.

[00:16:19] Um, and then you and Nick killed it, I guess on the, I didn't get to see you perform,

[00:16:24] but I saw Nick perform.

[00:16:25] Yeah.

[00:16:25] Yeah.

[00:16:25] He does a great job.

[00:16:27] Yeah.

[00:16:27] That was a fun time.

[00:16:28] Are you guys going to like become the next hall?

[00:16:30] And I know this is our friend, Nick, he's like, he, him and stomp are musically like

[00:16:34] partnering or something.

[00:16:35] Well, I'm glad you asked that because what we're here to tell you tonight is stomp is

[00:16:39] now going out on tour and I'm going to be your new cohost.

[00:16:43] Okay.

[00:16:43] I'll take that trade.

[00:16:44] Wow.

[00:16:44] Yeah.

[00:16:45] That's a good trade action.

[00:16:46] That's an upgrade.

[00:16:47] Yeah, it is.

[00:16:48] It is.

[00:16:49] So anyway, what for you?

[00:16:53] What?

[00:16:53] Yeah.

[00:16:53] I guess you could look at it either way.

[00:16:55] Yeah.

[00:16:55] Right.

[00:16:56] Exactly.

[00:16:57] Um, so yeah.

[00:16:58] So thank you for everyone for, uh, for showing up.

[00:17:00] It was a huge crowd.

[00:17:01] It was great to see everybody.

[00:17:03] Um, and those, those live events can always be a little bit difficult.

[00:17:07] And I feel like if I cut any guests short, I feel bad, but, um, I feel like we, we had

[00:17:11] a good, good conversation, good set of conversations with everybody.

[00:17:14] So it was really fun.

[00:17:14] Mm hmm.

[00:17:15] That was good.

[00:17:16] And that was just another event just with a really strong service vibe to it.

[00:17:22] It was, yeah.

[00:17:23] And again, positive.

[00:17:24] Yeah.

[00:17:24] Really good.

[00:17:25] Exactly.

[00:17:26] And, um, just to see everybody come together, you know, Mount Washington, the cog, the observatory,

[00:17:32] um, and then a lot of the folks in the, the, the hiking world as well.

[00:17:35] It was just really fun.

[00:17:36] Yep.

[00:17:37] So, all right.

[00:17:38] So now you have here something about massive new slab exfoliating on Owl's head cliff.

[00:17:43] And I don't know what that is.

[00:17:44] Yeah.

[00:17:45] Well, I was cliff, um, I was at cliff is on route 25, um, near a Glen cliff, I believe.

[00:17:50] And, um, I was driving by it the other day.

[00:17:52] And, uh, I think you may be familiar with the one that happened about two years ago at

[00:17:56] Cannon cliffs on Eagle cliff on the other side.

[00:17:59] Yeah.

[00:18:00] There, there's like a football field size exfoliation on the face of Owl's head right

[00:18:06] now.

[00:18:06] It's unbelievable.

[00:18:07] And you can see the path that it made all the way down to Oliverian pond.

[00:18:11] I believe that is.

[00:18:12] So if anybody's driving by, check it out.

[00:18:14] It's really cool.

[00:18:15] Okay.

[00:18:16] That's awesome.

[00:18:16] If you can get a picture and post it up on our social, that'd be cool.

[00:18:19] Oh, it's massive.

[00:18:20] Scary.

[00:18:21] Awesome.

[00:18:22] All right.

[00:18:22] Well, we are, uh, today right now is December 5th and we're on the countdown for the official

[00:18:28] start of winter.

[00:18:29] So this will be where a lot of hikers will be focusing on getting their winter 4,000 footer

[00:18:33] list or other activities going.

[00:18:35] So Saturday, December 21st is, um, the official winter solstice and it starts at 421 AM.

[00:18:43] So Saturday morning by like 430 people can get out there and start banging it out.

[00:18:48] So I expect there'll be a lot of people trying to do single season winter 4,000 footers and

[00:18:52] a lot of people just getting out there to try to work on their winter 4,000 footer list.

[00:18:57] So it'll be exciting.

[00:18:57] I finished mine last winter, so I don't have anything.

[00:19:00] So you're going to the awards this year then?

[00:19:03] Yeah.

[00:19:03] If I, I haven't filled out my.

[00:19:05] Oh, is that in April?

[00:19:05] Right?

[00:19:06] It's in April.

[00:19:07] Good for you.

[00:19:07] I need to fill it out.

[00:19:08] I'm lazy.

[00:19:09] Yeah.

[00:19:09] You got to get it in.

[00:19:10] He missed the deadline last year actually.

[00:19:12] If I remember correctly.

[00:19:14] I did.

[00:19:14] So I, I will fill it out though this time.

[00:19:16] I promise.

[00:19:17] And we'll have a table there too, I think.

[00:19:19] Yeah.

[00:19:19] I think I'm going to be there too.

[00:19:20] That'd be a great time.

[00:19:21] All right, then I'll, I'll fill it out and I'll, I'll, I'll get the award.

[00:19:27] Awesome.

[00:19:27] Excellent.

[00:19:28] And then randomly stomp put in just a random news article.

[00:19:33] I have no idea.

[00:19:34] This doesn't like fit in with anything here, Ty.

[00:19:36] Except for fitness.

[00:19:38] Except for fitness.

[00:19:39] But he put in the, a lady has broken the world record for the most pushups in an hour by,

[00:19:46] I guess she did, I'm pulling this up.

[00:19:51] She did 1,575 pushups in an hour.

[00:19:58] And she's 59 year old grandma.

[00:20:00] Right.

[00:20:00] So.

[00:20:01] Amazing.

[00:20:02] Cool.

[00:20:03] And you added that the record is what?

[00:20:05] No, no, no, no, no.

[00:20:06] I just like, because I saw that you had put this pushup thing in.

[00:20:10] Um, I had said that I know a fun fact is I like pro wrestling.

[00:20:16] So the macho man, Randy Savage, remember him?

[00:20:19] I don't know if you know pro wrestling.

[00:20:21] Step into a slim gym.

[00:20:22] Right?

[00:20:22] Yeah.

[00:20:22] Snap into a slim.

[00:20:23] Snap in.

[00:20:24] His, his father is the world record holder for the most sit ups of all time.

[00:20:29] He did 6,033 sit ups in four hours and 10 minutes back in like the fifties.

[00:20:36] That's great.

[00:20:37] And he did 6,000 sit ups and then he did 33 for every year of Jesus birthday afterwards.

[00:20:44] So, so I have a feeling like the reason macho man was probably the way he was is because he

[00:20:49] had a father that did 6,000 sit ups.

[00:20:54] I wonder what his blood pressure was like after that.

[00:20:56] I don't know.

[00:20:57] I don't know.

[00:20:58] But anyway, that's just, we see in the future, we need to look at this, um, script and position

[00:21:05] things so that they flow a little bit better.

[00:21:07] Stomp.

[00:21:07] It's been available.

[00:21:09] I know.

[00:21:09] I know.

[00:21:10] I didn't, I didn't think through it.

[00:21:11] So, um, all right.

[00:21:13] So now just going back to a, um, a story about more like weather or whatever, um, on January

[00:21:20] 25th in the, this coming year, the planets will line up.

[00:21:25] So this phenomenon is going to be visible to the naked eye.

[00:21:29] Um, I don't like this at all.

[00:21:31] This doesn't sound good.

[00:21:32] I don't feel like the, the earth's gravitational pull is going to get out of whack.

[00:21:37] I don't like it.

[00:21:37] Yeah, it is pretty strange.

[00:21:39] So every planet will line up in front of the sun.

[00:21:42] I don't like that.

[00:21:43] Will we be able to hike up and see this?

[00:21:47] First time I've ever heard of it.

[00:21:48] I guess it does happen.

[00:21:50] I did read on Wikipedia that it does happen.

[00:21:52] Okay.

[00:21:53] So it, it happens occasionally, but I don't like it.

[00:21:57] Cause I read another article that said something about how the earth had tilted 30 inches and

[00:22:02] that's not supposed to happen either.

[00:22:03] So I don't know what's going on.

[00:22:06] Well, that's true.

[00:22:07] Yeah.

[00:22:07] The whole magnetic field is shifting.

[00:22:09] You know that, right?

[00:22:10] I did read that.

[00:22:11] That's fascinating.

[00:22:12] Yep.

[00:22:12] Some strange stuff going on.

[00:22:13] I don't like any of this.

[00:22:16] I get nervous.

[00:22:17] I get nervous.

[00:22:17] What happens if the magnetic field shifts too far?

[00:22:20] Uh, you have to change your declination on your compass.

[00:22:24] Okay.

[00:22:25] Everything falls off your refrigerator.

[00:22:27] I don't know.

[00:22:27] That's what I thought too.

[00:22:28] That's what I thought too.

[00:22:29] So anyway, we'll keep an eye on that.

[00:22:31] I feel like that's not, maybe that's not as interesting as an eclipse, but maybe,

[00:22:35] maybe it is.

[00:22:35] I don't know.

[00:22:36] Do you think the, uh, the grandmother was doing the pushups is part of this next story?

[00:22:40] She's not.

[00:22:41] So this is another, so I'm afraid of planet alignment, but what we should really be more

[00:22:46] afraid of is sinkholes.

[00:22:47] Um, and this is a horrifying story and I've heard these stories before.

[00:22:50] Like there was a, there was somebody who was in their bed in Florida that got a sinkhole

[00:22:55] developed and they never found the person.

[00:22:58] I think they've, in this case, they found her shoe, but this is crazy.

[00:23:02] So she's still missing.

[00:23:03] I, I didn't do a, I didn't check to see if there's any updates on this.

[00:23:07] Sorry, Ty.

[00:23:09] I just read it yesterday.

[00:23:10] Um, 64 year old lady, Elizabeth Pollard in, this is an odd story.

[00:23:16] So she's a grandma and she was, and again, this goes back to why cats are no good.

[00:23:22] They're evil creatures.

[00:23:23] She apparently was looking for her cat.

[00:23:26] So she had her granddaughter in the car.

[00:23:28] It was three in the morning and she's wandering around searching for her cat.

[00:23:33] And she left her granddaughter in a car.

[00:23:37] I think the granddaughter is like five years old, left the granddaughter in the car, sleeping

[00:23:40] in her child seat.

[00:23:43] And she's wandering around this area and she was looking for her cat.

[00:23:48] She thought she saw, saw the cat.

[00:23:51] And then a sinkhole developed right where she happened to be.

[00:23:54] And, um, I think this area is known as having mines, coal mines and things like that.

[00:23:59] So, uh, unfortunately they did find her shoe, but they haven't been able to find her.

[00:24:05] And I think that there's some water issues and they're pumping out water and trying to

[00:24:09] find her.

[00:24:10] Um, but yeah, that's a terrible story.

[00:24:12] It's so dangerous for the urban search and rescue.

[00:24:16] I'm sure.

[00:24:17] Yeah.

[00:24:17] Yeah.

[00:24:18] So they're trying to like, I guess, get, get the water out and figure out how they can,

[00:24:22] uh, they can find her.

[00:24:23] But it is weird that she was out there looking for her cat and, uh, it was like three in

[00:24:27] the morning.

[00:24:28] So there's about a hundred people involved in search and rescue.

[00:24:31] Um, they're using a vacuum truck to suck out the debris in the sinkhole.

[00:24:37] Um, they said that essentially like they, they think that, uh, this, this formed, uh, adjacent

[00:24:44] to, uh, a mine and they're trying to build out another, um, another section that they can

[00:24:50] dig out to try to get access to it from the side.

[00:24:52] But it's just very, very difficult environment, which is crazy to think.

[00:24:56] Like he figured like, Oh, it's just like, Oh, it's just like, Oh, it's in Pennsylvania.

[00:24:59] Yeah.

[00:25:00] In coal mine areas.

[00:25:01] Got it.

[00:25:01] Yeah.

[00:25:02] Maybe I think it was like an older abandoned shaft or something.

[00:25:05] Could be.

[00:25:07] It's a weakness over time.

[00:25:08] Could be.

[00:25:09] The ceiling.

[00:25:09] So, but again, cats are trouble.

[00:25:11] They're dangerous.

[00:25:12] Don't go looking for cats because this can happen for sure.

[00:25:16] So, uh, but I'll try to see if I can find an update on this one in the future.

[00:25:21] And, um, as of now, um, the latest update I've seen is that they basically declared that

[00:25:27] this is, it's no longer a search, it's a recovery, but they don't have, they don't have

[00:25:32] any timeline on when that's going to happen.

[00:25:34] So that is sad.

[00:25:35] Mm-hmm.

[00:25:36] So.

[00:25:38] Hmm.

[00:25:39] I don't know how to transition after that stop.

[00:25:41] What?

[00:25:42] Don't sink holes in donuts.

[00:25:44] Yeah.

[00:25:45] Yeah.

[00:25:45] You put a donut story on here.

[00:25:47] So this is.

[00:25:48] We've talked about this.

[00:25:48] Yeah.

[00:25:49] Yeah.

[00:25:49] So this is, I don't know, Ty, are you familiar with the donut shop up in North Conway that

[00:25:52] has the mural?

[00:25:54] Levitt's.

[00:25:55] Have you heard it?

[00:25:55] No, where is it?

[00:25:56] It's in Conway.

[00:25:57] Yeah.

[00:25:57] Where?

[00:25:57] It's right next to L.

[00:25:58] It's like a little bit past LL Bean.

[00:26:00] Okay.

[00:26:01] Right on Route 16.

[00:26:02] So basically what happened with this is that I think that the owner purchased this store

[00:26:07] a couple of years ago.

[00:26:09] And as part of the branding of it, it's a donut shop and a bakery.

[00:26:13] As part of the branding, he engaged with some high school students to paint like a mural.

[00:26:20] It's like a rainbow mural, but it has donuts as clouds.

[00:26:24] And mountains.

[00:26:25] And mountains.

[00:26:26] Yeah.

[00:26:26] Right.

[00:26:27] And it's kind of, the building is not facing directly out to Route 16.

[00:26:31] It's sort of like.

[00:26:33] I thought it was recessed.

[00:26:34] I thought the whole.

[00:26:34] It's kind of recessed and it's, the mural is facing like, it's perpendicular to Route 16.

[00:26:41] But what ended up happening is that some of the city officials flagged it and said that

[00:26:47] this mural is a violation of the North Conway sign ordinances.

[00:26:53] Yeah.

[00:26:53] Because they're only supposed to be like four feet tall or something.

[00:26:56] And the donut shop was like, well, we have a sign that's in compliance.

[00:27:01] The painting is a mural which is not covered under the signed ordinance.

[00:27:06] So, and this is like high school kids.

[00:27:08] So what ended up happening is that the city or the town enforced the ordinance.

[00:27:14] And I think that they issued fines and told him that he needs to cover it up.

[00:27:19] And.

[00:27:20] Yeah.

[00:27:20] So you either have to take it down or, or make it smaller.

[00:27:23] So those are the two options that the town gave him.

[00:27:26] Yeah.

[00:27:27] So what ended up happening is that the, the owner decided he was going to take it to court.

[00:27:32] He's like, this is a, this is a, um, a free speech or like a, this is a good lesson

[00:27:36] for the students that were involved.

[00:27:38] And I feel like I'm in the right here and that they're, they're, they're doing selective enforcement.

[00:27:43] And there are some, some towns, people that had said like, look, you know, the sign for

[00:27:46] settlers green is huge compared to this one.

[00:27:49] So there's inconsistency in the enforcement.

[00:27:52] So, uh, this has been going on for about a year and a half.

[00:27:55] Um, and now the, finally they've got a court date.

[00:27:58] So they go into court in February.

[00:27:59] So we'll, there'll be, he's taken it to court.

[00:28:02] He's basically saying like, look, I'm, I want to prove a point.

[00:28:05] I want to teach the students a lesson around standing up for yourself and you know, we'll,

[00:28:10] we'll see what happens with the court battle in February.

[00:28:12] Yeah.

[00:28:13] He's, uh, powered up with a, uh, heavy hitter first amendment lawyer.

[00:28:17] Yep.

[00:28:17] So it should be interesting.

[00:28:18] Yeah.

[00:28:18] It's really fascinating stuff.

[00:28:20] Yeah.

[00:28:20] And the place is great.

[00:28:21] If you're ever in there that they have awesome donuts, they have a good pastry.

[00:28:24] I usually I'll stop in there every once in a while.

[00:28:26] Have you been to Holy donut in Maine?

[00:28:28] No.

[00:28:29] Where's that?

[00:28:35] They're good.

[00:28:36] They're potato donuts.

[00:28:37] Oh really?

[00:28:38] Uh huh.

[00:28:38] I don't even know what that is.

[00:28:39] What is that?

[00:28:41] A potato.

[00:28:42] There's potato in the donut.

[00:28:43] Okay.

[00:28:44] No, I think, but.

[00:28:46] Well, I think there's, but they're, they're amazing donuts.

[00:28:52] Okay.

[00:28:52] Yeah.

[00:28:53] I was thinking like shape is like as big as a potato.

[00:28:56] Yeah.

[00:28:57] Well I'm, I'm on team, um, Levitt's bakery, I think.

[00:29:00] Well, I'm going to stop there next time I'm in the Valley.

[00:29:02] They're definitely, it's a, it, they have great, great donuts, great pastry.

[00:29:06] And, um, I think that ultimately, like, I think that like you let people have fun.

[00:29:11] I think that it's, it's kind of become like a landmark to me, you know, and you can't,

[00:29:16] it doesn't stick out.

[00:29:17] Like you kind of have to look for it to see it because it's, it's not right on the road.

[00:29:21] So.

[00:29:21] Well, in this type of case, it's the government's burden to show why they had to do it.

[00:29:26] You know, it's, it's a first amendment, so it's in, it's a inalienable right.

[00:29:31] And, uh, it's going to be sort of tough one.

[00:29:34] First amendment stuff.

[00:29:35] Yep.

[00:29:36] So we'll see.

[00:29:36] Um, I think the main reason they wanted to, their, their argument is they want to keep the

[00:29:41] old new England charm, which I don't know if that'll stand up.

[00:29:43] I'm sure there's tons of case law, but we'll see.

[00:29:45] Hmm.

[00:29:46] Yeah.

[00:29:46] I do feel like, um, North Conway more and more, it's like they're bringing in a lot of

[00:29:50] chains and a lot of, um, franchise type places.

[00:29:53] So I, I feel like maybe they should give the local businesses a little bit more of a break,

[00:29:57] but I don't know.

[00:29:59] Some people like their rules.

[00:30:01] Um, all right, stop.

[00:30:03] So now speaking of rules, typically we have a rule where we do notable hikes of the week,

[00:30:09] but you're now, um, changing that rule where we're going to not do that until the beginning

[00:30:15] of next year.

[00:30:16] Yeah.

[00:30:16] Yeah.

[00:30:17] Because Ty coming in, I mean, we have a lot to cover.

[00:30:19] So we'll get back to that, uh, at the first of the year after the holidays and, uh, all

[00:30:24] right.

[00:30:24] So if you've tagged us in a notable hike and we didn't call your name, just blame, blame

[00:30:29] Ty.

[00:30:30] It's my fault.

[00:30:32] So have you been, have you hiked at all?

[00:30:34] Well, I had this.

[00:30:34] So the week of the book release, uh, which was the week of the 20th, my wife and I had

[00:30:41] a plan to, we were going to spend two days in Pinkham Notch.

[00:30:44] We were going to go to the sites, um, in the book just as kind of a, you know, to honor

[00:30:49] those sites and to spend time there.

[00:30:52] And that trip fell apart.

[00:30:53] So it's been rescheduled to January.

[00:30:56] And I'm really psyched about that because there wasn't snow on the ground when we were

[00:31:00] supposed to go.

[00:31:01] So now it'll be a winter.

[00:31:02] Yeah.

[00:31:03] Excursion.

[00:31:03] This time of the year is tough.

[00:31:05] Honestly, like when there's just a little bit of snow on the ground, it's actually way

[00:31:08] worse than when you've got a base.

[00:31:10] Yeah.

[00:31:11] So, um, cause you can slip through rocks and sometimes like the spikes in the traction

[00:31:15] doesn't work as well because you don't have any base to bite into.

[00:31:18] So.

[00:31:18] Or if you're frugal like me, I don't want to ruin my spikes.

[00:31:23] True.

[00:31:23] Yeah.

[00:31:23] Like what are they now?

[00:31:24] Like 90 bucks a pop.

[00:31:26] I think I got some for like 65.

[00:31:28] Remember when they just hadn't taken off yet?

[00:31:31] Uh huh.

[00:31:31] Yeah.

[00:31:32] Yeah.

[00:31:33] Yeah.

[00:31:33] Crazy.

[00:31:34] Now they're, um, they must have for sure.

[00:31:37] So, all right.

[00:31:38] Um, one other thing, we do have a notable hike that, um, I slipped in here, but this

[00:31:42] is just a shout out to our friends.

[00:31:43] Yeah.

[00:31:44] Yeah.

[00:31:45] Right.

[00:31:45] Yeah.

[00:31:46] But this one's impressive.

[00:31:46] So we, we have, um, a friend Larson that has worked with Stomp on a couple of like, uh,

[00:31:52] projects for Lodge to Dodge, uh, Lodge to Dodge.

[00:31:55] And then what, what was the Waterville Valley hike?

[00:31:58] Oh, uh, the hot skyline.

[00:32:01] Yeah.

[00:32:01] Was that Travis with him in that one?

[00:32:03] Yes.

[00:32:04] Yeah.

[00:32:04] He, he paced them.

[00:32:05] Yep.

[00:32:05] Yeah.

[00:32:05] Yeah.

[00:32:05] So Larson and Travis, I think Travis went on to do something on Monadnock.

[00:32:11] Oh, dude.

[00:32:11] He broke a record.

[00:32:12] I wouldn't doubt it, but he has been smoking all the white mountain endurance races, the

[00:32:16] Aravipa races.

[00:32:17] Yes.

[00:32:17] Yeah.

[00:32:18] He's really taken off.

[00:32:20] Yeah.

[00:32:20] So anyway, last on Saturday, the 30th, Larson and, um, Travis did a single day red line

[00:32:27] of Mount Monadnock.

[00:32:29] So they did all the trails, um, on Mount Monadnock on a Saturday.

[00:32:33] And I guess the conditions weren't that great.

[00:32:35] Wow.

[00:32:35] That's great.

[00:32:36] Was there a record of that prior?

[00:32:38] So according to what I read, I think this was on like the Pac-Monadnock social media

[00:32:43] site.

[00:32:43] They don't have any record of anybody having done that in a single day.

[00:32:47] Interesting.

[00:32:48] Yeah.

[00:32:48] Well, they have the crew to do it.

[00:32:50] Yeah.

[00:32:50] Yeah.

[00:32:50] So shout out to Larson and Travis.

[00:32:52] Cause that's, that's impressive.

[00:32:54] Yeah.

[00:32:54] That's great.

[00:32:55] All right.

[00:32:56] Stomp.

[00:32:58] We all know that hiking a mountain can be hard at times.

[00:33:02] So here's a corny dad joke to help you get over it.

[00:33:06] Ba-dum-bum.

[00:33:09] All right.

[00:33:09] Stomp.

[00:33:10] Um, why don't mountains ever get tired?

[00:33:13] Uh, why?

[00:33:14] Why?

[00:33:15] Because they're always peaking.

[00:33:17] Oh my God.

[00:33:21] Uh, why don't hikers ever get lost?

[00:33:26] They just trail off and call it exploring.

[00:33:29] He's a terrible one.

[00:33:31] Did you write these?

[00:33:32] No, I just did chat GPT.

[00:33:34] Stomp told me before I, before I left, Stomp texted me.

[00:33:37] He's like, make sure you pull some dad jokes.

[00:33:39] Right.

[00:33:39] And then I just heard the drop and I was like, Oh no, I didn't pull any dad jokes.

[00:33:43] So I just typed into chat GPT and this is what I got.

[00:33:46] Oh, that's too funny.

[00:33:47] Well, you did good.

[00:33:49] Is that the last one?

[00:33:51] Uh, what do you call a bear with no teeth?

[00:33:55] A gummy bear.

[00:33:56] That's a good one.

[00:33:57] That's a good one.

[00:33:58] That's not bad.

[00:33:58] Yeah.

[00:33:58] That's a good one.

[00:33:59] So that's all I got.

[00:34:00] So I mean, chat GPT will go on forever, but that that's, I don't want to, um, I don't

[00:34:06] want to give too much away.

[00:34:10] So anyway, uh, now I lost my script.

[00:34:14] Couple little search and rescue news hits here and then we're going to dive into a coffee

[00:34:22] donations.

[00:34:26] Can I go?

[00:34:27] If you want to.

[00:34:28] Okay.

[00:34:30] Stomp has his little machine here with all these buttons that he can press.

[00:34:33] He's, he's lost it.

[00:34:34] Um, all right.

[00:34:35] So we've got some search and rescue news.

[00:34:37] This first one is out of the sweetest wilderness.

[00:34:39] This is a 22 year old YouTuber, um, that our friend Mike Keen had sent over.

[00:34:46] So this is a sad story.

[00:34:48] So I guess this is a, um, the young man's name is storm de Buell.

[00:34:53] So that's an interesting name.

[00:34:55] Uh, 22 year old nature lover.

[00:34:57] He was a YouTuber.

[00:34:58] Apparently he had, um, came from quite a bit of money according to his dad, which

[00:35:02] is a weird comment from the dad, but apparently he'd like to go out and explore.

[00:35:05] So he was in, uh, the sweetest wilderness, which sounds really cold and dangerous.

[00:35:11] And he, um, was camping.

[00:35:15] So he had a tent and backpacking gear.

[00:35:17] It was minus six degrees Celsius.

[00:35:20] And then eventually fell as low as 18 degrees Celsius.

[00:35:24] And, uh, he unfortunately experienced hypothermia and ended up, um, dying out there.

[00:35:30] But it was interesting that he, I guess he had been about a day's walk away from his car.

[00:35:36] He liked to go out and do the, these extreme adventures.

[00:35:39] And then he would film them and then host a, he would post them on his YouTube channel.

[00:35:44] So it was like an extreme outdoor person.

[00:35:46] And, uh, he wasn't too far from his car, like a day's hike.

[00:35:50] And, uh, he ended up getting in trouble.

[00:35:52] He did contact, um, search and rescue, but the weather was so bad that they couldn't get

[00:35:57] to him.

[00:35:58] Um, they were able to mobilize a helicopter to find his location.

[00:36:04] They had his location.

[00:36:05] They mobilized a helicopter.

[00:36:07] They were able to locate him, but the conditions were pretty dangerous when they pulled, um,

[00:36:12] pulled up in the helicopter.

[00:36:13] So they were able to, I guess, rescue or return his or recover his body, but they weren't able

[00:36:19] to get anything else out.

[00:36:20] So the father is now saying he's going to wait till the spring or the summer and try

[00:36:24] to hike back out there and at least get, try to find his camera and get the video footage

[00:36:28] or the SD card to see what the content was.

[00:36:32] But yeah, something definitely went wrong there.

[00:36:34] That's horrible.

[00:36:34] Yeah.

[00:36:35] I'm reading here that trees were uprooted in this freak snowstorm.

[00:36:39] Yeah.

[00:36:40] I mean, that's unbelievable.

[00:36:43] Yeah.

[00:36:43] Yeah.

[00:36:43] That's sad.

[00:36:44] Um, and then in another sad, sad story here.

[00:36:47] So we did have a fatality on, um, in and around the Kinsman Ridge, um, area.

[00:36:54] I think this was on November 23rd.

[00:36:56] So, um, a hiker had been, um, out hiking.

[00:37:01] He was overdue from copper mine trail area in Franconia.

[00:37:05] I don't really, I'm not familiar with this is somewhere between Cannon and the Kinsman's.

[00:37:09] Is that right?

[00:37:10] Um, it's, it's, it's near Easton.

[00:37:13] It's south of Franconia.

[00:37:14] It's on the backside of Cannon?

[00:37:15] It's the Western side of the Kinsman's.

[00:37:18] So, uh, Bridal Veil Falls.

[00:37:20] Uh, you take the copper mine trail up to Bridal Veil Falls.

[00:37:23] Uh, there's a shelter up there.

[00:37:24] It's basically the, the backside of the, the, the middle cannonball, uh, in between Cannon

[00:37:30] and the Kinsman's on the Western side.

[00:37:33] Okay.

[00:37:34] Yeah.

[00:37:34] Yeah.

[00:37:34] So, um, around 4 PM, um, the, uh, the hiker had communicated with his wife that he was

[00:37:39] okay and he was on his way back out.

[00:37:41] Uh, he did not return in a reasonable time.

[00:37:44] So, um, his wife ended up calling for assistance.

[00:37:48] So, Franconia police were able to locate his vehicle at the copper mine road, um, trailhead

[00:37:55] off 116 in Franconia.

[00:37:57] And that basically triggered a search by conservation officers.

[00:38:00] And they had a rough idea where, uh, he had gone and the area, um, was searched.

[00:38:08] They primarily went off trail and I guess just prior to around one in the morning, well,

[00:38:13] going down a steep section of a slide, they were able to locate the missing man.

[00:38:20] And, uh, he was around 2,800 feet in elevation and, um, conservation officers and volunteers

[00:38:26] from Pemi search and rescue were called in to assist with the recovery efforts.

[00:38:31] So those 22 rescuers that took part in the rescue and by 5 30 AM, um, they had reached the

[00:38:37] scene and then they had to take about a three mile hike out and they were able to get the,

[00:38:42] uh, uh, recovered body back by, by 9 AM.

[00:38:45] So my understanding is that this was an experienced, um, hiker, mountain biker, outdoors, backcountry

[00:38:51] skier.

[00:38:52] I think he was scouting some backcountry ski routes and I did look on social media.

[00:38:57] I think he had posted some nice videos on, on, um, the 4,000 footer list and was making

[00:39:03] his way through that list.

[00:39:04] So, uh, by all accounts, you know, definitely a dedicated hiker and outdoors person.

[00:39:08] So, um, Christopher Hewler of Littleton, New Hampshire is his name.

[00:39:13] So, um, condolences to Chris and his family.

[00:39:16] Absolutely.

[00:39:16] Yep.

[00:39:18] So, yeah, it's just a sad story.

[00:39:20] And, you know, it's like, uh, this is goes back to what I was talking about this time of

[00:39:23] the year.

[00:39:24] It can be a little bit tricky.

[00:39:25] Um, it sounds like this might've been like a slip situation.

[00:39:28] So, um, but it can happen anytime.

[00:39:32] Yep.

[00:39:33] So, um, but yeah, that's unfortunately a sad story here.

[00:39:37] And then the other story that we do have stomp is this one happened on the same day,

[00:39:43] 7 PM conservation officers got a call, um, two hikers, a brother and a sister were, I guess

[00:39:50] their plan was to hike Lincoln Brook out to 13 falls.

[00:39:54] And then I don't know if they were going to go up Owl's head or if they were going to just,

[00:39:58] um, come back around, um, and circumnavigate Owl, Owl's head or what the plan was.

[00:40:04] But, um, there was some water crossing.

[00:40:07] So they had fallen into a water crossing section.

[00:40:11] They had been able to change their clothes and, uh, warm up a little bit, but unfortunately

[00:40:16] they had another incident at a water crossing.

[00:40:19] They got in their tent.

[00:40:20] Luckily they were able to, um, notify fishing game.

[00:40:23] I think it said they had, yeah, they had a Garmin in reach.

[00:40:26] Um, so they were able to, after falling into Lincoln Brook and getting their clothes wet,

[00:40:31] they were, um, able to notify fishing game by 2 30 AM to conservation officers reach the hikers.

[00:40:39] So can you imagine going out there at 2 30 in the morning in those conditions?

[00:40:42] I mean, hats off to the conservation officers for doing that.

[00:40:45] Yeah.

[00:40:46] Um, they do it all the time.

[00:40:47] It's crazy.

[00:40:48] They do.

[00:40:49] It's crazy that they, I mean, can you imagine like you just, you never know any night you

[00:40:52] could just get, get a call.

[00:40:54] So, um, but they did the, they were the hikers, it was brother and sister.

[00:40:58] So they were in a tent and they were inside sleeping bags, but because they were wet, um,

[00:41:03] early stages of, um, you know, cold, uh, hypothermia were starting to seep in.

[00:41:09] So they were able to get them dry clothing and provide the two hikers with, uh, uh, with

[00:41:14] some warmth.

[00:41:15] And, uh, they made their way back out starting around 3 30 in the morning and got out at

[00:41:20] 7 15.

[00:41:21] So, uh, 20 year old and an 18 year old hiker, uh, one from Hanover, New Hampshire and one

[00:41:27] from South Hadley.

[00:41:28] So.

[00:41:30] Okay.

[00:41:31] Very close call on that one.

[00:41:32] I would imagine.

[00:41:34] Yeah.

[00:41:35] Thank God for the, uh, in reach.

[00:41:36] Right.

[00:41:37] Right.

[00:41:37] Yeah.

[00:41:37] So that's another, that's if you're going to be playing out there in that area for sure,

[00:41:42] you need, you need something.

[00:41:42] Well, and that they had some extra gear to get dry clothes on.

[00:41:46] Yep.

[00:41:47] Exactly.

[00:41:47] So, I mean, you need to, that's what I always think about in these winter conditions is you

[00:41:51] need 12 to 14 hours.

[00:41:53] You got to be able to survive.

[00:41:54] And that's about what just happened with what they had here.

[00:41:58] Yeah.

[00:41:59] So that's it.

[00:42:00] That's it for the search and rescue.

[00:42:02] Um, we had a few donations over the last, uh, few weeks or so.

[00:42:06] So just want to say thank you to Cameron Casey.

[00:42:08] Um, she donated three coffees and thanked us for the, um,

[00:42:12] the Vaucluse frame.

[00:42:14] I guess you said reckless and you gave her one.

[00:42:16] Yep.

[00:42:17] Yeah.

[00:42:17] I gave a few.

[00:42:18] We were just tossing frames out to whoever wanted them.

[00:42:21] Really?

[00:42:21] Yeah.

[00:42:22] I think I gave five away, which is good.

[00:42:24] My son wanted a patch.

[00:42:25] He didn't get one.

[00:42:26] So I can snag one before.

[00:42:27] Oh yeah.

[00:42:28] Oh yeah.

[00:42:28] Absolutely.

[00:42:29] Um, also we have a donation, five coffees by a R and a donation to the New Hampshire

[00:42:35] Outdoor Council.

[00:42:36] Thank you.

[00:42:37] A R.

[00:42:37] Mr.

[00:42:38] Todd fish donated 10 coffees.

[00:42:40] Fantastic.

[00:42:41] And then finally Judy C, uh, donated three wishing us a happy Thanksgiving.

[00:42:46] And, uh, she added a little ambiance.

[00:42:48] If you notice behind me, there's this little candle burning.

[00:42:51] It's a 4,000.

[00:42:52] Oh, she gave me one.

[00:42:53] Oh yeah.

[00:42:53] So it's lit.

[00:42:54] And, uh, it's really cool.

[00:42:55] Then she makes candles out of these cans.

[00:42:57] I wonder, would she do full conditions cans?

[00:43:00] Yeah.

[00:43:01] Oh yeah.

[00:43:01] I would assume so.

[00:43:02] I'll get her contact info.

[00:43:04] Oh, absolutely.

[00:43:04] That would be awesome.

[00:43:05] You hear that Judy when you're listening, we want full conditions can candles.

[00:43:10] Yeah.

[00:43:11] That's right.

[00:43:11] Uh, and then for a sponsor, we have CS instant coffee, uh, do more, wait less CS instant

[00:43:17] coffee, and you can find them at CS instant dot coffee.

[00:43:23] And you want to skip beer?

[00:43:24] Yes.

[00:43:25] Yeah.

[00:43:25] Let's skip beer.

[00:43:26] All right.

[00:43:27] What's, uh, what's up next here?

[00:43:29] Do we have a special guest in the room?

[00:43:31] We do.

[00:43:32] This is Ty's big moment.

[00:43:33] Yeah.

[00:43:34] Let me see if I can find this drop.

[00:43:36] Oh, here we go.

[00:43:37] Oh no.

[00:43:50] I feel like I'm on, um, like a Disney ride.

[00:43:53] Yeah.

[00:43:54] Like one of those Disney rides with the big TV screen in front of you.

[00:43:57] It's time for Slasher's guest of the week.

[00:44:00] Very cool.

[00:44:01] Very cool.

[00:44:03] See, I'm thinking Hunger Games.

[00:44:05] Hunger Games.

[00:44:06] Hunger Games, yeah.

[00:44:07] Or like Harry Potter just, he suddenly learned how to fly on his room.

[00:44:11] That's right.

[00:44:12] Right.

[00:44:13] All right.

[00:44:14] Nice drop.

[00:44:14] Ty, so we have like, we have these giant maps here.

[00:44:17] Stomp is like a, a Frankenstein monster.

[00:44:20] Yeah, that's impressive.

[00:44:20] So we're going to talk about a search and rescue.

[00:44:22] We're going to talk about your book search and rescue event that happened in January of 82.

[00:44:25] So we got a, a deep dive here.

[00:44:27] But, um, I guess just to start off with, um, just to reintroduce Ty.

[00:44:32] So you've, you've written a number of books about search and rescue white mountains, um, events.

[00:44:38] So, um, where you'll find me, the story of Kate Manistrova.

[00:44:41] And then, um, you've written The Last Traverse as well recently.

[00:44:45] You've got short stories.

[00:44:47] And then, uh, this most recent book is The Lions of Winter, the story of, uh, a rescue of two young men.

[00:44:54] And, and unfortunately the, um, um, tragic death of Al the Dow during the course of that, that event.

[00:45:00] So, um, is there anything I missed Ty? Anything else you want the listeners to know about you?

[00:45:05] No.

[00:45:05] No.

[00:45:06] Okay.

[00:45:08] Um, I don't mean, I don't, I just, you don't like to talk about yourself.

[00:45:11] I get it.

[00:45:12] I get that vibe.

[00:45:13] You cringe every time we start breaking out your resume.

[00:45:16] I do.

[00:45:16] Yeah.

[00:45:17] So, um, so I guess the first question I wanted to follow up with you on was in the past, like my impression has been that you, you know, you write one book and then you're not going to be a book.

[00:45:24] And you, you're a very deep researcher and you end up getting to connect with many different people.

[00:45:29] And it seems to me like, at least in one or two cases, you've said like, oh, well, I was talking to this person about one project.

[00:45:35] And then I learned about a story from them that I was like, oh, this would be a good idea.

[00:45:40] So I was curious, what, what was the motivation?

[00:45:43] Um, what, what was the trigger for you to say, like, this is the story that I want to write about?

[00:45:47] So I first learned of Albert, um, and the tragedy, uh, surrounding his loss.

[00:45:54] When I was, I was out on a climb, uh, with my climbing partner heading into King ravine.

[00:45:59] And it came up because, uh, we were heading into avalanche terrain and he, my climbing partner was a member of mountain rescue service years and years ago.

[00:46:09] Um, and we talked a little bit about it and it just then just kind of tucked it away.

[00:46:16] Um, and then years later I climbed lion head in the winter with my brother-in-law and a colleague.

[00:46:23] And it, that, that just kind of came front of mind again, because that's where that had taken place.

[00:46:28] So it was kind of a, um, just a memory there.

[00:46:32] But as I've been doing this writing for the past, I don't know, eight years or so, the, a continuous thread throughout all of the research has been Albert.

[00:46:43] Um, search managers that, that I talk with bring up Albert in terms of, uh, the weight of sending volunteers.

[00:46:53] And, um, you know, sworn search and rescue personnel out into the back country and not, uh, wanting to put them in jeopardy.

[00:47:01] Um, all of the changes that have taken place, uh, within the search and rescue community since that time from a, just a better idea or handling snow science, uh, training, um, technical equipment, those kinds of things.

[00:47:18] And it just, you know, he, he, he just kept coming up and I got to a point where I was really wanted to look into writing the whole story because parts of the story have been told before, but not really a detailed account of, of those four days, the aftermath of the four days.

[00:47:38] And then, um, and then, then what has followed, um, and how that impacts search and rescue operations today.

[00:47:45] Yeah.

[00:47:45] And do you, uh, I'm assuming there's a period where you, you make the decision to say, I want to pursue this, but there's a number of people that you have to engage with.

[00:47:53] And then once you have that engagement at a certain point, you get, you get through discussing it with certain stakeholders in the story.

[00:48:01] And then you can determine probably, oh, I can actually do this project and go forward because people will collaborate.

[00:48:07] Did that take a long time for you to get there?

[00:48:09] It, um, I won't say it take, it took a long time.

[00:48:12] Um, but I was helped by people who had relationships with those that had been there that were involved.

[00:48:19] There are still, uh, search and rescue members working today that were involved in that incident.

[00:48:27] And I, I just think that speaks to the, the commitment and the resilience of, of our search and rescue volunteers, um, in particular.

[00:48:35] And so as I started to do outreach, the, the, the first two places I went to, uh, was, um, Albert's sisters.

[00:48:43] Um, I, I was able to get in touch with them with some, um, through a contact.

[00:48:49] And I sat with them and I, I explained who I was, what I was trying to do, the approach I was going to take.

[00:48:55] Did you go to them?

[00:48:56] Are they in Pennsylvania?

[00:48:57] No, they're, they're, um, local.

[00:48:59] Oh, Tuftonboro, right?

[00:49:00] Uh, they, they, they grew up in Tuftonboro and they, now they live in the Southern part of the state.

[00:49:05] So I went and sat with them.

[00:49:06] I think it was on a Sunday morning.

[00:49:08] Um, and then I met shortly thereafter with Rick Wilcox, who was the longtime president of mountain rescue service, was the president at the time of the tragedy.

[00:49:18] Um, and then, um, with the help of Albert's sisters, I was able to get in touch with, uh, the two climbers that they were searching for, Hugh, her, and Jeff Batzer.

[00:49:28] And once, once I had the support of Albert's sisters, um, and mountain rescue service and Hugh and Jeff, I felt like I had the support I needed to pursue it.

[00:49:42] Because as I, I think I've shared with you before, if, if any, any one of those folks I just talked about had said, no, um, I, I'm not, I'm not going to, I wouldn't continue.

[00:49:55] Did you have an easy time finding a lot of art?

[00:49:57] I'm assuming there was a lot of articles from the early eighties.

[00:50:00] Um, did you, did you do a lot of research to find those, those old articles?

[00:50:03] I did.

[00:50:04] So there, and I want to thank two people in particular, um, but, um, there isn't a lot online about it.

[00:50:13] There is now more recently because there's a documentary, a couple of documentaries have come out, um, around Hugh, her, Hugh, hers work in prosthetics.

[00:50:21] Um, a Google search might bring up a, an old newspaper account, but I worked with the, the Mount Washington Observatory, um, has an archivist.

[00:50:31] The AMC have, has an archivist, and they had a lot of information that was really, really helpful to me.

[00:50:38] That, uh, newspaper articles that had been microfiche or scanned over time.

[00:50:42] And, um, I just really, really, um, provided a lot of support in helping me get the research that, uh, information that I needed.

[00:50:52] Yeah.

[00:50:53] And you also had obviously people that were, were directly involved.

[00:50:56] They're still, still able to, to talk about it.

[00:50:59] And then you also were benefited by getting some, some notes and journals from people that were involved that are no longer alive.

[00:51:06] Yeah.

[00:51:06] But they were sort of certain people like that.

[00:51:10] They just, they just write things down and they, they, they keep journals.

[00:51:13] It's probably not as common as it used to be, but, um, but that certainly benefited, I think.

[00:51:18] And it would, that, that came through in the writing for sure.

[00:51:21] And, um, there was a very comprehensive report that was written at the time because it was, again, it involved a, the loss of a rescuer in the midst of the mission.

[00:51:31] And that, so I had the roster of everyone that was involved.

[00:51:35] Um, and that's where the internet does come in really handy for those that no longer live in New Hampshire, New England, that have gone to live elsewhere.

[00:51:44] Um, I had some friends that helped me search some people out, um, members of the rescue community, members of the AMC who were there helped make me make connections.

[00:51:54] So, um, I was able to get to a lot of people.

[00:51:58] And then I, obviously that the gift of Misha Kirk's journal, um, before he passed away is, has, was a tremendous help.

[00:52:07] And I'm really grateful to his family for allowing me to use it.

[00:52:12] Obviously Rick Wilcox is a tie-in, but was there any other tie-ins to, um, The Last Traverse or Kate's book, uh, that you, obviously you built these relationships and I'm sure there's, there's people that were involved in all of these, uh, these, these incidents.

[00:52:27] But, um, did you find that there was a lot of tie-in there?

[00:52:30] There, there was definitely tie-ins.

[00:52:32] Um, Steve Larson, who's a longtime member of Mountain Rescue Service, uh, was involved in all three of the missions that I write about.

[00:52:39] Uh, which I just think is remarkable.

[00:52:41] Joe Lantini is another longtime member.

[00:52:44] Um, I think most of the Mountain Rescue Service members that rescued James Osborne on Little Haystack were on the team at the time and either involved in that search or were not in the state at the time of the search, but were on the team.

[00:52:59] Okay.

[00:53:00] Yeah.

[00:53:01] Um, just to set the, the, the, I guess the environment there.

[00:53:05] So most of this rescue happened in and around Pinkham Notch.

[00:53:09] Um, you've got the, uh, Mount Washington Observatory was, was part of this as well.

[00:53:16] But, um, there's a lot going on here and it's, it's, it's similar to the infrastructure, similar, but there, there's some, some differences.

[00:53:25] So you've got Pinkham Notch, obviously you've got Harvard Cabin, Cabin, you've got Hermit Lake, you've got the AMC workers that are at Joe Dodge Lodge.

[00:53:34] Um, you've got Mountain Rescue, um, you've got Mountain Rescue, Fish and Game, and then, um, the observatory workers as well.

[00:53:43] Um, Mountain Rescue at the time, can you talk a little bit about the history there?

[00:53:47] So my understanding is essentially you had, um, people from the Eastern Mountain Sports Climbing School that were involved.

[00:53:57] They were basically the ones that were before, I think even Mountain Rescue was involved, they were the ones that might help out with, with complicated rescues along with the AMC.

[00:54:06] Um, but that eventually evolved into Mountain Rescue, um, and there wasn't any formal PEMI search and rescue or any of the other voluntary search and rescue.

[00:54:16] But can you talk a little bit about that Eastern Mountain Sports and, um, international mountain equipment and, um, Mountain Rescue Service?

[00:54:25] How did that all come to be?

[00:54:26] Yes.

[00:54:27] Um, so the other organization that was involved, uh, United States Forest Service Snow Rangers, because in the wintertime they have jurisdiction over the Cutler River drainage, which is where this covers Tuckerman, Raymond, Huntington.

[00:54:40] Um, and, and back in 82, Mountain Rescue Service, uh, uh, uh, formed in 1972.

[00:54:48] And up until that point, the AMC was doing a lot of the, of the search and rescue missions, um, in the North Country.

[00:54:56] And Mountain Rescue really formed, um, because of an incident that took place on Cannon Mountain where, uh, two climbers, um, had, had an accident on the cliffs.

[00:55:07] Um, they really didn't know how to, they were going to get to them to recover them.

[00:55:12] Neither one of them survived.

[00:55:14] And so, um, climbers from the Mount Washington Valley were called upon, uh, to come and assist with a high angle recovery.

[00:55:24] And that, uh, really, I think was the start of, uh, climbers starting to be pulled into some of these more technical rescues that were happening on Cathedral Ledge with rock climbers, ice climbers, Huntington Ravine.

[00:55:37] And elsewhere.

[00:55:38] Um, and so you mentioned, um, Eastern Mountain Sports Climbing School, the International Mountain Equipment, um, was right there across the street at the time as well.

[00:55:50] And so what you had were climbers, um, who either worked, uh, on the retail side and, or were guiding for the schools or instructing for the schools.

[00:56:01] And it was a very informal, um, it was a very informal structure where if fishing game or the Forest Service needed technical, um, expertise or to put people above tree line, uh, in the, particularly in really bad weather, um, mountain rescue service, which is just this informal group of climbers, um, were pulled together to go out on the missions.

[00:56:27] Yeah. And the, um, I guess at, at Pinkham Notch as well. So you had the AMC, it's a different group of people that are working at AMC in the winter than compared to the summer.

[00:56:38] So you have less college students that are doing the, the summer work at the huts. Can you talk a little bit about like, what was the crowd at Joe Dodge Lodge and, and Hermit Lake and, and that area? What, what, what was the background of those people?

[00:56:49] Yeah. What I, what I found is they either work there full time, either in the woodshop or the dining room or the front desk, but you would also find, um, staff back then where it was college students, but they were taking the winter semester off to be in the mountains to ski, hike and climb. So it was a, it was a mix.

[00:57:09] Yeah. And as far as equipment goes, um, there was obviously some snowmobiles there, but the, the, the use of the, the, the, the thiacol, is that how you pronounce it?

[00:57:19] Snow tractors.

[00:57:19] So these snow tractors were all over the place.

[00:57:22] Ancient thing.

[00:57:22] And it was interesting. I went back and I was looking at pictures of these things. So there are these snow cats where they're fully enclosed and I don't know how many people you can fit in these things.

[00:57:33] It's like six. Yeah. But I, my understanding is the snow cats that you were talking about, there was a, there was some that actually had like a, what, a pickup bed and they were putting the rescuers into those open pickup beds.

[00:57:46] So they were exposed to the weather the whole time they were, they were driving.

[00:57:49] Yeah. The, the beds of the thiacols back then were four by four, um, four feet by four feet. And they were putting 10 plus rescuers piled into the back there with their gear.

[00:57:59] It's crazy. Yeah. So, and those things, so those we used all over the place, like to get up to the observatory, they were used to get up to Hermit Lake if they needed to.

[00:58:09] Yeah. I thought the WMTW TV, um, snow tractor was, I had more of a cab than what the observatory was using. Basically the observatories, I think it was two, it was maybe a bench seat.

[00:58:23] So you could get three people in there, maybe cram four and, uh, the, the WMTW thiacol I think could, um, get more people inside. I don't know if it had a bed or not.

[00:58:34] Um, but it's a, it's a far cry from what they have today.

[00:58:37] Yeah. Yeah. I was looking at pictures of these old things and it just looks, it seems crazy that you'd be driving up in crazy weather like that.

[00:58:43] But, um, and then just the equipment in general, like the clothing, um, is heavier clothing. Um, obviously you're dealing with, um, more snow.

[00:58:55] I feel like too. I think like we probably deal with less snow can less snow nowadays than there was back then.

[00:59:00] And then the communication system. So you had radio communication that was managed through Hermit Lake and Pinkham Notch, but there was no guarantee that those radios were going to work.

[00:59:10] No, it was analog. It wasn't digital as it is today. So when they would go out on rescues, um, they would have a fish and game portable, a forest service portable and AMC portable.

[00:59:21] Um, and you could have two and three radios that you were bringing, um, out and they, they, there were a limited number of them.

[00:59:29] So their communication was a real challenge back then for the teams.

[00:59:34] And did they have a, did they have a, um, a process where they would have scouts going back and forth between groups or was it just relying on when, once, once they got freed up with the radios, they would, they would find out what's going on above them.

[00:59:45] Yeah. They were just, they would send them out with, you know, hope to have a radio at least with each team that was going out and, uh, that's how they would do it.

[00:59:53] Well, all right, Stomp. Anything else that I missed as far as setting the table for this?

[00:59:58] I think tying onto the thigh call that the book opens with a moment where a driver of a thigh call steps out and you, uh, deftly show, uh, a reader how quickly things can go south.

[01:00:14] Yeah.

[01:00:15] In terms of full conditions, if you're not prepared. Um, could you talk about that?

[01:00:20] Sure. So William Labby, uh, this, this happened a month before the search for, uh, Hugh Hearn, Jeff Batzer, and Albert Dow.

[01:00:27] Had been out on that mission and, um, he was, uh, doing a Wednesday shift change and got up onto the mountain, got to the point where it was just whiteout conditions.

[01:00:40] And he just was not feeling good about going any further. So, um, turned around, lost sight of the road, uh, got out of the thigh call and, um, almost immediately got, um, detached, you know, just disconnected from it.

[01:00:54] Um, and was lost on the mountain and he had 32 years of experience. Um, and he, because of that 32 years of experience, he had a basic idea of where he needed to be or, and what angle he needed to descend the mountain to get below tree line and to hopefully link up with, with, with the auto road, which he ultimately was able to do.

[01:01:15] Terrifying. Yeah. I mean, it just shows you how quickly and how crippling can be, um, for even the most experienced people.

[01:01:21] Right. Um, one last question back to the climbing, uh, aspect. What was the scene, uh, during that time? Was the white mountain region known for climbing at the time?

[01:01:32] Did it draw people from, you know, national places or what was going on at the time?

[01:01:37] Huntington was the hub for sure before, um, you know, like Willoughby in Vermont and, um, Frankenstein cliff was fine.

[01:01:45] Frankenstein cliff was in, was getting, um, high visitor, but Huntington was the classic new England gully ice gully kind of a scent.

[01:01:55] Um, so it was, it was a really busy time. Harvard cabin, you know, was generally busy in the wintertime, people coming from out of state, you know, a few of the folks that were at Harvard cave cabin during the search had come from, uh, Massachusetts.

[01:02:11] That particular weekend had come up from Pennsylvania as in addition to Hugh and Jeff, who were from Pennsylvania, there was another trio that had come in from Pennsylvania as well.

[01:02:22] Uh, Hugh and Jeff were, they were young, I think 17 and 19 or 17 and 20.

[01:02:28] So a little bit odd that like that, that age difference, like friendship, but I get it because like probably climbing makes them, you know, the age difference isn't that big of a deal, but, um, they had previously been to Huntington.

[01:02:40] They had some experience in this area, right?

[01:02:42] Yeah. So, uh, they had, they had met at a crag, um, and became very, very close friends.

[01:02:49] And as you just mentioned, they had come up the year before, um, there was, you know, ironically, there, there was a fight fatality, um, in Odell Gully, that same, um, time period that they arrived.

[01:03:02] But back then there wasn't social media.

[01:03:05] Um, they didn't stay in Harvard cabin.

[01:03:07] They slept in a van and they were unaware, uh, of that accident, um, until they got back to Pennsylvania, but they had come up the year before and they had, uh, planned to do pinnacle.

[01:03:19] Uh, which, which they did.

[01:03:22] Uh, but prior to climbing pinnacle, they had stashed their backpack, the, the one backpack that they brought, uh, did pinnacle, descended the escape hatch off to the left and then retrieved their pack, drove over to Frankenstein and had a great rest of the day, um, climbing ice there.

[01:03:40] So for them, no problem.

[01:03:41] No problem.

[01:03:42] So that, that's sort of the mindset the year before, um, they decided to go back.

[01:03:47] And I think Hugh was known as like a climbing prodigy.

[01:03:50] My understanding was, is that he had done some climbing out West and had done a lot of climbing around New Hampshire.

[01:03:56] But, um, as the story unfolds, you'll find that there's a, there's a big difference between climbing and knowledge of the, the area.

[01:04:04] So he wasn't necessarily a hiker.

[01:04:06] He was a, let's climb.

[01:04:08] He was a large, hardcore, passionate, very, very, very good climber.

[01:04:13] Yeah.

[01:04:13] Yep.

[01:04:14] Yeah.

[01:04:14] And he, so I guess him and Jeff hooked up.

[01:04:17] They decided that they were going to drive back up to New Hampshire in January of 1982.

[01:04:21] Back then it's interesting.

[01:04:23] So he's 17, I think back to like when I was that age.

[01:04:26] Driving around.

[01:04:27] Well, yeah.

[01:04:28] I mean, it is interesting because people can't relate nowadays, but like that was my, I mean, we would come up to Maine to stay over my, my friend's cabin and you know, there was no phone or anything.

[01:04:40] And my parents would just say, okay, we'll be back on, on Sunday.

[01:04:43] So if something had ever happened, they wouldn't, they wouldn't ever think to be like, oh, we have to call to, to find out.

[01:04:48] But it would be basically if I left on a Friday and I said, I'm going to be back Sunday, they may not, it may not trigger anything until Monday.

[01:04:56] And I think that was the case here.

[01:04:57] And, you know, in talking with, with Hugh and Jeff about their, their upbringing, their, their, both of their sets of their parents really focused on independence, self-reliance, getting out into nature and being able to care for yourself.

[01:05:13] Um, and so it was not, this trip North from Pennsylvania was not uncommon or of concern really, um, for, for, for their parents.

[01:05:25] Yeah.

[01:05:26] Now, how old were you back then?

[01:05:27] Back in 82?

[01:05:28] Eighth grade.

[01:05:29] Eighth grade.

[01:05:29] Yeah.

[01:05:30] So yeah, I was probably, I don't even know.

[01:05:32] Yeah.

[01:05:33] I would have been a little bit younger.

[01:05:34] So Hugh's dad had some trepidation about one of those trips though, right?

[01:05:37] It was, uh, it was actually, uh, Jeff Batser's father as Jeff was packing up to make the trip North.

[01:05:44] He had checked the weather.

[01:05:46] Um, again, couldn't check the higher summit's forecast back then, but he did have some concerns and he voiced those concerns.

[01:05:52] And, you know, but like Jeff said, what, you know, what are you going to do?

[01:05:55] Your 20 year olds going out on an adventure and how much can you really impact that?

[01:06:01] And back to, back to research.

[01:06:02] Did you have good records for their weather back then?

[01:06:05] Excellent.

[01:06:06] Yep.

[01:06:06] Excellent.

[01:06:06] They, they, they have, um, they have archived all of their, um, hourly weather observations dating far back beyond that.

[01:06:16] So it was a huge help.

[01:06:18] Wow.

[01:06:18] Well, so, so Hugh and Jeff, they set off from Pennsylvania?

[01:06:24] They did.

[01:06:24] Is Jeff from New Jersey?

[01:06:26] Is that where I can't remember?

[01:06:27] They, they, they left Pennsylvania for New Hampshire and they ultimately land, um, went in the wrong direction.

[01:06:33] Yeah, I remember that.

[01:06:34] Cape May, New Jersey, I believe.

[01:06:35] Yes.

[01:06:36] Yeah.

[01:06:36] Which is funny.

[01:06:36] That's another thing that people can't relate to because everybody has a map in their pocket now, but that would happen.

[01:06:41] You would go.

[01:06:42] Totally.

[01:06:43] Yeah.

[01:06:43] You would go the wrong direction.

[01:06:44] I remember one time, I think I went up to Portland when I was supposed to go into like the Sebago area and I, I missed it and kept going for about an hour.

[01:06:52] So it does happen.

[01:06:53] So it's just a different time back then.

[01:06:55] Mm-hmm.

[01:06:56] So they get lost by what?

[01:06:57] Three, four hours?

[01:06:58] Yeah, at least.

[01:06:58] It was a long, a long drive north.

[01:07:01] Mm-hmm.

[01:07:01] So they're tired and then their goal is they get to pink them and then they go right.

[01:07:05] They didn't stop at Joe Dodge Lodge.

[01:07:08] They went right to Harvard Cabin.

[01:07:09] They didn't, you know, they did.

[01:07:10] And they, they were both really candid about this.

[01:07:14] They didn't sign in the year before at Joe Dodge.

[01:07:17] They didn't sign in this particular in 1982.

[01:07:20] Um, and, and what I try to say in the book and, and talking with people within AMC from that time period and others is like, yeah, I mean, I didn't sign the book sometimes.

[01:07:31] So it's not like this was a only time this ever happened thing.

[01:07:35] And I always try to do this with the research to say, okay, we could spend a lot of time focusing on this misstep.

[01:07:42] Um, but I always try to say, look, there were other people out on the mountain.

[01:07:46] There were other people that don't sign in.

[01:07:48] There was, it's, yeah, you figured that, um, if you're going into Harvard Cabin or you're going to Hermit Lake that on a, on a, was it a weekend day that they were on?

[01:07:59] They got up there Friday night, Friday night.

[01:08:01] So you figured like, yeah, there's going to be a crowd there.

[01:08:04] Yeah.

[01:08:04] So, but they be lined it right, right for Harvard Cabin.

[01:08:07] Yeah.

[01:08:08] Yeah.

[01:08:08] So, and we've talked about Harvard Cabin before.

[01:08:10] It's, it's a little bit different than the AMC cabins.

[01:08:13] Like it's not like as full service.

[01:08:15] It's a little bit more, you know, the caretakers are there.

[01:08:18] But the caretakers are busy doing a lot.

[01:08:20] It's more self-service.

[01:08:21] It's a little bit darker, uh, smaller.

[01:08:24] It's, it's a little bit more sort of Lord of the Rings type of vibe, I think.

[01:08:28] Sure.

[01:08:29] So, so we have Matt Pierce.

[01:08:31] He was the caretaker during this adventure.

[01:08:32] Yeah.

[01:08:33] Um, he described pop the weasel.

[01:08:35] Is there really?

[01:08:36] There was.

[01:08:37] So yeah, there was, they, there was a, uh, the mouse population.

[01:08:41] And I, I still, I think this might still happen to a certain extent, but back then, um, it,

[01:08:49] the cabin would be inundated by mice by the time the winter caretaker arrived to open it

[01:08:54] up.

[01:08:54] Yeah.

[01:08:55] Um, and a weasel had taken up residence as he aptly described.

[01:08:59] They nicknamed him pop and by, and it was, it was kind of nightly entertainment to watch

[01:09:06] the mice and watch pop come out and start hunting.

[01:09:08] And by the end of the season, uh, the, the mouse population was, was, uh, significantly

[01:09:14] reduced.

[01:09:16] I don't know what I'd rather deal with a weasel or a mouse.

[01:09:19] They both horrify me.

[01:09:21] Yeah.

[01:09:22] That's a good point.

[01:09:23] Yeah.

[01:09:23] Never a cat though.

[01:09:24] Huh?

[01:09:24] No cats ever.

[01:09:25] No cats.

[01:09:26] Just on the, just on the summit.

[01:09:27] Yeah.

[01:09:28] Yeah.

[01:09:28] Right.

[01:09:28] Yeah.

[01:09:28] It's not a, like it's probably not a good environment cause it does it, it warms up a little bit

[01:09:32] when they get the stove, but for most of the day, the cabin is freezing.

[01:09:35] They're keeping the cabin cold until people are sleeping.

[01:09:38] Yeah, for sure.

[01:09:39] Um, so, so they get up there and you know, their plan is to climb in Huntington.

[01:09:45] So, um, I'm not a climber.

[01:09:47] I mean, I've looked at the maps and I understand that there's multiple routes.

[01:09:51] Odell Gully is, um, if I'm recalling this correctly, I'm familiar with the hiking route.

[01:09:58] So you get up to the fan, which is sort of the steep area.

[01:10:00] Odell Gully is more like you keep going straight up and it's that, that sort of crag that goes

[01:10:05] directly up the middle of Huntington.

[01:10:07] Is that correct?

[01:10:07] Uh, that's probably central.

[01:10:09] Okay.

[01:10:09] Yeah.

[01:10:10] Central.

[01:10:10] It's so, I think if you think of central Gully, right, kind of in the, in the center,

[01:10:15] uh, Pinnacle is to the left.

[01:10:17] Odell is to the left of that.

[01:10:19] Okay.

[01:10:19] South Gully is to the left and then escape hatch.

[01:10:21] I can show you on the map.

[01:10:23] Oh yeah.

[01:10:24] This is, Stomp's been so excited.

[01:10:26] He's got like a laser pointer.

[01:10:29] So 3,500 feet is the cabin.

[01:10:31] Ty's blind now.

[01:10:33] Thanks.

[01:10:33] Stomp.

[01:10:34] That probably shouldn't look at that.

[01:10:35] Yeah.

[01:10:36] Seriously.

[01:10:37] Don't look at that directly.

[01:10:38] But, um, so their plan is in the, and they're pretty experienced.

[01:10:41] Um, I recall reading in the book, like the ice climbing culture was just starting to take

[01:10:48] off.

[01:10:48] So, um, most of the climbers were rock climbers and then they would, they would sort of do

[01:10:54] what they needed to do to adjust for ice, but it wasn't necessarily just dedicated ice

[01:10:58] climbing techniques that was still developing.

[01:11:02] Right.

[01:11:02] Yeah.

[01:11:03] And, uh, so Yvon Choenard, um, Choenard equipment, which is I think now Patagonia, um, he, uh, came

[01:11:12] to the East with, uh, some innovations in, in technical climbing gear that arrived here roughly

[01:11:18] in probably the late seventies.

[01:11:20] Um, and, and when that happened, you know, as one of the members of mountain rescue service

[01:11:25] described to me, you have people that already have technical ability, you give them the tools

[01:11:31] and they, they're just going to take it to the next level.

[01:11:34] And, and that's what you saw happening because what was happening prior to the ice revolution

[01:11:39] is how they, how they refer to it.

[01:11:41] Um, is that they would, they would, they would go out into the gullies, but they would do what

[01:11:46] they could to avoid the ice bulges because the, the technical equipment just wasn't where

[01:11:51] it needed to be.

[01:11:52] When Noel O'Dell, uh, did a first ascent of Odell gully, he chopped, uh, um, steps into

[01:12:01] the ice all the way up the gully.

[01:12:03] That's how they did it.

[01:12:04] He brought a party up with him, uh, and just chopped.

[01:12:07] I can't imagine what that, how difficult that must have been for the people below him too.

[01:12:11] They wait for him to chop everything out to clear away.

[01:12:14] Yeah.

[01:12:14] But by early eighties, the tools that had arrived, some of it was still, um, there were

[01:12:20] still people climbing without it, um, or just not getting everything that was coming out

[01:12:25] right away.

[01:12:26] Um, and again, like it was still evolving.

[01:12:30] Yeah, it's, it's interesting.

[01:12:31] And then the dynamic between Hugh and Jeff, like my sense is though, even though Hugh was

[01:12:36] younger, like from reading the book, my sense was that for whatever reason, I don't know

[01:12:40] why I took, took away this, but I felt like Hugh was, um, in some ways the leader or the,

[01:12:46] the one that, um, you know, they both look to, to make the decisions and, and, um, that,

[01:12:52] that dynamic was interesting just because of the age difference too.

[01:12:55] Yeah.

[01:12:55] Hugh definitely was the leader.

[01:12:57] And I think a lot of that comes with the, the technical expertise that he had, his climbing

[01:13:03] ability because Jeff, um, was learning to climb, uh, was getting good at climbing.

[01:13:10] Hugh was really good at climbing.

[01:13:12] And I think what you saw in that relationship was that, um, in Jeff, Hugh had a person who

[01:13:20] would go out with him, belay, um, allowed Hugh to push it on the roots.

[01:13:25] Um, and Hugh would get Jeff out of his comfort zone.

[01:13:29] And that's where Jeff saw the learning taking place is that he was uncomfortable.

[01:13:34] He was fearful at times.

[01:13:36] And, and Hugh would just be really incredibly supportive with him and patient with him and

[01:13:42] would help him progress through the sport to the point where he, he was becoming a really

[01:13:49] proficient, uh, climber.

[01:13:51] When you, when you spoke with both of them for the book, were they, um, at peace with,

[01:13:55] with all their decisions?

[01:13:56] Cause I mean, we'll get into some of this, but like there were some decisions obviously

[01:14:00] that we could look, we could, you could, you could look at and say like, well, these weren't

[01:14:03] the best choices, but you're also dealing with a 20 year old and a 17 year old.

[01:14:07] They don't know the, they don't know the environment as far as when it comes to the, the layout of

[01:14:12] the mountain and the areas that they ended up in.

[01:14:15] Uh, but did you find that they were pretty much at peace with, with all of that?

[01:14:19] I think they, they were very forthcoming about their, their errors in judgment.

[01:14:26] Um, and there, there was a confidence behind that.

[01:14:31] They, they knew where things went wrong and when and why.

[01:14:35] Yep.

[01:14:36] Yeah.

[01:14:36] And, um, so the book basically in the beginning talks about, um, their approach to Harvard cabin.

[01:14:43] There was some other climbers there, there was some tension, I think it seemed like in

[01:14:47] the book, um, about, you know, how they interacted with some other people, but it's probably

[01:14:51] just like weird, you know, not picking up on social cues or something like that.

[01:14:56] So, um, it's tough, tough to read that, but basically they were all business and they were

[01:15:00] anxious to get going and go climbing on Saturday morning when, when they got up.

[01:15:04] Yeah.

[01:15:05] Their plan was to do pinnacle gully again.

[01:15:07] Uh, Jeff had hoped to do some lead climbing on this one, uh, the year before he had followed

[01:15:12] and he was hoping to, um, be able to do more than he had done a year prior because Jeff,

[01:15:19] it was interesting when they arrived here in 1982.

[01:15:22] Um, I wouldn't say their paths were climbing paths were diverging, but they were definitely

[01:15:28] heading in different directions in terms of, you know, Hugh was, was developing a national

[01:15:34] reputation for his, for his rock climbing ability.

[01:15:37] Um, and Jeff was really starting to get pulled toward the higher peaks of the world.

[01:15:44] You know, I, I think he, he did see himself as moving toward, um, you know, the six, seven,

[01:15:50] 8,000 meter peaks.

[01:15:52] That's, he wanted to do expedition type climbing.

[01:15:55] He wanted to carry heavy weight.

[01:15:57] Um, he saw this coming up here, uh, in 1982 is again, a progression toward that, which,

[01:16:03] you know, and, and for me, it, that makes me think about Kate Matrasova because Kate came

[01:16:10] up here, um, in February of 2015, uh, because she was training for those larger peaks.

[01:16:17] She wanted the seven summits.

[01:16:19] I believe she had done four at that point, three or four.

[01:16:22] Um, and that, you know, Jeff was heading in a, in a similar direction.

[01:16:26] When, um, when you talked about the, the time at the Harvard cabin, where did you get most

[01:16:31] of the information, was that from Jeff and Hugh or did, were you able to talk to Matt

[01:16:35] Pierce as well?

[01:16:36] Oh, I was able to get a copy of the Harvard cabin sign in log.

[01:16:40] Okay.

[01:16:40] Um, and so I started there, um, and was able to, um, find Matt Pierce, which took some time

[01:16:49] because he's, he's no longer on the East coast.

[01:16:51] Um, and then I was able to through again, um, connections within the climbing community

[01:16:58] and the rescue community that I'd worked with previously were able to help me connect with

[01:17:02] some other people that were there.

[01:17:05] And then again, through Google searching, um, I, I was able to find another party of three,

[01:17:10] um, that had come up from Pennsylvania.

[01:17:14] Did Pierce have, uh, concerns about them and what was happening with the weather for that

[01:17:19] day, the next day?

[01:17:20] So the weather was starting, the, the, the weather was going to be bad for that weekend.

[01:17:25] And Pierce knew, um, you know, Pinkham notch knew New Hampshire knew that we were in for

[01:17:32] a pretty significant snowstorm.

[01:17:34] New England was in fact, and he was aware of it.

[01:17:38] Um, he knew that their intent was to climb Pinkham.

[01:17:41] I mean, to climb pinnacle gully.

[01:17:44] And they were really waiting on that 8am weather update, um, from the AMC, uh, to, to make decisions.

[01:17:52] But, but Matt used that weather report and just his knowledge of the terrain to have a

[01:18:01] conversation with Hugh and Jeff to try to steer them toward Odell because it would take them

[01:18:06] less time to do.

[01:18:08] He believed that it would be less apt to avalanche because avalanche, um, there was concern about

[01:18:14] avalanche hazard, uh, that would escalate Saturday through Sunday.

[01:18:18] Mm-hmm.

[01:18:19] That's great though.

[01:18:20] I mean, we talk about intervening.

[01:18:21] When do you intervene and say, Hey, you may be over your head here.

[01:18:25] Um, and ultimately he did give them the right advice.

[01:18:28] It's just, there was a, there was a decision that was made that we'll get into that, that

[01:18:31] caused the issue.

[01:18:32] But if they had sort of stuck to the original plan and that, that route guidance that he

[01:18:37] gave them was, was pretty solid.

[01:18:38] Yeah.

[01:18:39] Yep.

[01:18:39] Yep.

[01:18:39] So, um, so at the same time you, so you, you basically lay out the, the arrival of Harvard

[01:18:45] cabin and then, uh, the plan to, to, to hike into Huntington.

[01:18:49] At the same time, you're, you're giving a little bit of background on, um, the rescue team and

[01:18:54] Albert Dow, you introduce us to, uh, to him.

[01:18:57] So can you talk a little bit about who Albert was and what his life was like around this time?

[01:19:02] Yeah.

[01:19:02] Albert grew up in center Tufton borough, um, with, uh, his parents and his two sisters.

[01:19:09] He was the middle child.

[01:19:11] And I think one of the most striking things as I learned more about him is to a person.

[01:19:19] And I've said this before, I think in another conversation I had when, when, when we lose

[01:19:25] somebody we love or care deeply about, um, there is that, that kind of pedestal.

[01:19:31] Factor that reaction that we have, um, which is complete, that's completely normal part

[01:19:38] of the grieving process.

[01:19:39] But to a person decades and decades later, um, from childhood friends to, um, adult climbing

[01:19:48] partners, search and rescue teammates, loved ones, Albert was a person that, that cared

[01:19:56] about people, um, in general.

[01:19:59] He, he, he was, he was kind of known as a protector, um, of his siblings as a, as a young

[01:20:06] child.

[01:20:07] He would look to, he, he had, he had the awareness to know when there was somebody in need, um,

[01:20:16] or somebody having challenges or whatever it might've been.

[01:20:19] And, and he was just really keyed into that.

[01:20:22] And, and what I was able to gather just from conversations with people who knew the family

[01:20:28] is that, you know, their, their parents raised Albert and his sisters to, to care about

[01:20:35] others, to look out for others' wellbeing.

[01:20:37] Um, that selflessness that you, you just saw early on in his life.

[01:20:43] Um, one, one friend in particular, um, Oren, um, who I talked to on a couple of occasions,

[01:20:51] but Oren was in a situation where he had a ailing father who had come back from the Korean

[01:20:56] war, uh, that they lived with very meager means.

[01:21:01] Um, it was a very difficult home life and situation for them, uh, economically.

[01:21:09] And Albert, um, recognized that and would give his clothing to Oren, um, would, would,

[01:21:18] would play with Oren, would, would go out and just be a friend to Oren when Oren didn't

[01:21:24] feel like he had friends and they became really close childhood friends.

[01:21:28] And, and Oren comes back into the story toward the end of the book.

[01:21:31] But, um, he was somebody that, um, in just in talking with people, they always felt like

[01:21:37] he was present when you were with Albert, you, Albert was with you.

[01:21:42] Um, he, he made you feel, um, that he was listening, that he, that he, you had his attention

[01:21:50] and that he was actively engaged in conversation with you.

[01:21:54] Um, just another anecdote in a friend of his, uh, talked about how they were going to go

[01:22:01] out and drive around and look at foliage.

[01:22:03] Uh, and the two friends said, no, why bother?

[01:22:06] It's raining.

[01:22:07] And Albert looked at that as the foliage is never more beautiful than when the sky is muted.

[01:22:11] Um, yeah, it's just, that's how he saw things.

[01:22:14] He just.

[01:22:15] Yeah.

[01:22:15] And he, so his climbing interest in his hiking is how did he get connected with mountain

[01:22:21] rescue and search and rescue?

[01:22:22] Yeah, he, uh, I'd say his teenage years, he, he kind of, uh, got bit by the climbing

[01:22:28] bike.

[01:22:28] He was an, he was a phenomenal skier.

[01:22:30] He, he went to, ironically, we're not too far from there, but, uh, he went to Waterville

[01:22:35] Valley, uh, black and boot trail smashers.

[01:22:38] Uh, he would commute, his sister would drive him over every afternoon after school from Tufton

[01:22:42] Borough and he became a really, um, a really good ski racer.

[01:22:46] He did races in other parts of the country, but he started, he kind of got bit by a climbing

[01:22:52] bug.

[01:22:53] Um, they had railroad trestles in, in the vicinity of Tufton Borough in the Ossipi area.

[01:22:58] And he would just go out there and start climbing.

[01:23:01] He'd climb with friends.

[01:23:02] He, he focused, started to put more focus on climbing, um, as he got into college, um,

[01:23:08] had gone to UNH and was on the UNH ski team, but moved away from that because he wanted to

[01:23:14] focus on his grades.

[01:23:15] He didn't think he could do both.

[01:23:16] Um, and then he gradually, after he graduated college, made his way to Conway and went to

[01:23:23] work for Eastern mountain sports.

[01:23:24] And he, um, was sort of at that point in his life where he's getting engaged and likely would

[01:23:30] have been married, had kids, moved on to a, um, probably a large family considering,

[01:23:36] um, you know, he came from a large family.

[01:23:38] So, um, one thing too is, so he was in Brownfield, which I'm familiar with.

[01:23:43] One thing I also want to call out is these rescuers.

[01:23:45] So this was ended up being a two or three day rescue logistically getting around back

[01:23:50] then.

[01:23:51] Like not, we take it for granted that everybody had four wheel drive and that you have to,

[01:23:55] you know, it's, it's, it's pretty easy to get around in the snow, but that wasn't

[01:23:58] the case back then.

[01:23:59] And they were driving these little beat up cars and they were getting up into pink and

[01:24:02] notch.

[01:24:03] Did any of the, any of the people you talked to talk about just logistically how difficult

[01:24:07] it was to get around and get to the sites where they needed to get to for rescues?

[01:24:10] Yeah.

[01:24:11] Well, they would, they would carpool because some of them didn't have cars back then.

[01:24:14] They were, you know, they were climbers.

[01:24:16] They would work, but it was really about climbing.

[01:24:20] And again, North Conway and the Mount Washington Valley being the Mecca of, of climbing really,

[01:24:26] I frankly in new England at the time.

[01:24:29] But they would carpool.

[01:24:31] The gear wasn't where it is today.

[01:24:34] I mean, Gore-Tex was just starting to come into it.

[01:24:38] A lot of wool was worn, outer shells, those kinds of things to, to, to provide warmth.

[01:24:45] Plastic mountaineering boots were not available at that point.

[01:24:48] Um, crampons, if it was cold enough would snap, uh, or just break altogether.

[01:24:55] So, um, and then the, and then the notification system and they had a call list where you had

[01:25:01] rotary dial phones and, and one would call one who would then hopefully call another.

[01:25:07] And that, and that's how that they would pull the team together.

[01:25:10] Well, they would stop by somebody's house on the way to a rescue and see if they can grab

[01:25:13] them.

[01:25:13] Yeah.

[01:25:14] There were no pager, which probably works better.

[01:25:16] Probably.

[01:25:17] Yeah.

[01:25:17] And sometimes sending a text.

[01:25:19] Right.

[01:25:19] No pagers, no cell phones, no internet.

[01:25:22] Yeah.

[01:25:22] It's crazy.

[01:25:23] So, you know, I just wanted to talk a little bit about Albert, but going back to where

[01:25:27] Hugh and Jeff are.

[01:25:28] So they're at Harvard, Harvard cabin.

[01:25:31] Um, they're getting ready on, you know, they wake up early Saturday morning.

[01:25:35] They have that discussion with Matt about like the strategic, um, plans for, for going

[01:25:40] up Odell, they buy into that.

[01:25:42] Uh, so they get ready.

[01:25:44] They're the first ones out, right?

[01:25:45] There's another climbing crew, but they're the first ones to go.

[01:25:47] Right.

[01:25:48] Right.

[01:25:48] Um, and then previously you had said the previous year they had stashed some gear down below.

[01:25:54] Um, and the idea was that like, you know, maybe we need this gear, but like we, if, if,

[01:25:59] if we want to go faster, then we'll save a little bit of time and energy and we can,

[01:26:04] we can sort of stash this gear under a rock and then come back and get it when we come

[01:26:07] back down.

[01:26:08] Yeah, there was, you know, the light and fast, um, was really, I mean, it was becoming more

[01:26:14] prominent back then.

[01:26:15] And, and Hugh and Jeff were not the only ones that would go light and fast.

[01:26:19] Um, and it was not really unreasonable if you were staying within Huntington ravine and

[01:26:25] topping out, um, at the top of the gullies to take the escape hatch or go across the garden

[01:26:32] and to, uh, to send lion head.

[01:26:34] So if you, you know, if you're just going out to ascend the gully and come down, um,

[01:26:38] you leave the pack because, you know, climbers would equate, um, safety with lighter weight.

[01:26:45] If I'm not, if I don't have a pack on my back, I, I don't, I have less of a risk of falling

[01:26:50] or getting pulled out of my, uh, protection, uh, because I'm carrying weight.

[01:26:55] And that, that pack, I can't remember in the book, like what exactly was in there.

[01:27:00] I'm assuming maybe extra hats, gloves, um, no sleeping bag.

[01:27:03] No, no.

[01:27:04] There was a bivy sack, um, map and compass.

[01:27:07] Uh, I think there was a camera, um, but no sleeping bag, no extra clothing, no food.

[01:27:14] So, so they make their way up and generally they had a, had a good climb up, up Odell.

[01:27:20] Yeah.

[01:27:20] They made good time.

[01:27:21] Yeah.

[01:27:22] And they made good time.

[01:27:23] And then this is where, so there's a couple of decisions where we talk about is, you know,

[01:27:26] first the, the, just leaving that gear down there, like you talked about that, that's

[01:27:30] not unreasonable.

[01:27:30] They did that the year before.

[01:27:32] Um, I believe during that climb, Jeff had lost his glove.

[01:27:38] Um, so back then again, I think it's pretty standard that most, most climbing gear is

[01:27:43] tethered to your, your, your, your wrist or whatnot, but you know, sometimes things happen.

[01:27:49] So he lost a glove, kind of waved it off, figuring like, all right, it's, it's going to be a little

[01:27:54] bit of a pain in the neck, but it turned out to be a bigger problem.

[01:27:58] Jeff, Jeff was 20 years old and he was working full time and much of his weekly paycheck would

[01:28:05] go toward gear.

[01:28:06] So he had really, he had my, he had as modern a gear as you could have at that time period.

[01:28:13] Um, but I, I don't believe, um, he lost a mitten.

[01:28:17] And I think at that time, I'm not sure that the mittens would tether because he had actually,

[01:28:22] um, crafted a Velcro strap around his Gore-Tex mitten that would hold to his wrist so that

[01:28:29] he could take off the mitten, um, and either, um, and unscrew ice screws as he was pulling

[01:28:36] off belay.

[01:28:36] So there was no redundancy.

[01:28:38] No, no redundancy.

[01:28:39] Right.

[01:28:39] So it was gone.

[01:28:40] Um, yeah.

[01:28:42] And they continued onward.

[01:28:43] Yeah.

[01:28:44] And then, um, so they, they top out.

[01:28:47] And then when you top out, typically you talked about like essentially then you're going to

[01:28:51] go to the left and you've got the option to go down this section called the escape hatch,

[01:28:56] or you can go down lions, lion head.

[01:28:59] Lion head.

[01:28:59] Yep.

[01:29:00] Um, what is the, can you talk about the escape hatch?

[01:29:03] I, I'm not really familiar with it.

[01:29:04] Is it, it sounds to me like there's enough snow in there where you can, you can sort of

[01:29:08] butt sled down sections of that pretty quickly.

[01:29:12] Right.

[01:29:12] Yeah.

[01:29:12] It's a shoot.

[01:29:13] Um, and it's, it's less technical.

[01:29:15] There's, there can be some ice in there at times, but, uh, the adjoining South gully

[01:29:20] tends to get more ice, but yeah, if that, if that gets loaded in with snow, um, it's a

[01:29:25] pretty straightforward descent down to the floor of Huntington and, and not a long trip back

[01:29:31] to, um, Harvard cabin.

[01:29:33] So, but it, it's also that it, again, it does load with snow and, and, and can be considered

[01:29:39] avalanche danger, particularly if you have those South winds, West, uh, South winds that

[01:29:44] are scuffing it off of, um, Alpine garden.

[01:29:47] Yeah.

[01:29:47] And so they, they top out, they've got to make that decision.

[01:29:50] Um, but, but this was a different trip for them because I think, you know, in that long

[01:29:55] drive up from, from Pennsylvania, New Jersey, um, my recollection is, as Jeff had talked about

[01:30:00] having some aspirations to say, like, it would be really great if we could get up to the summit

[01:30:05] and, and, and, and, you know, sort of cap the whole trip off with a, with a, with a summit

[01:30:10] and then we'll come back down.

[01:30:11] So ultimately they had to make that decision.

[01:30:14] Do we build down to the cabin and call it a day in a successful trip?

[01:30:18] Or do we try to go for it at that time?

[01:30:21] The weather was starting to pick up as well.

[01:30:23] And this is, I think where the complexity of the story really, I'm not going to say it

[01:30:28] begins here, but the year before when they came up, there was, they had no intention of

[01:30:32] summiting Mount Washington after coming up out of, um, pinnacle.

[01:30:37] And Jeff, um, had, I think it was in December.

[01:30:42] He had, uh, set his sights on going back to hunting, uh, December of 1981, setting his

[01:30:48] sights on going back to Huntington, January of 82.

[01:30:51] He had asked, originally asked a friend of his to go.

[01:30:53] Hugh, he didn't intend to take Hugh that time.

[01:30:56] His friend was unable to go.

[01:30:58] So he asked Hugh and he had expressed to Hugh an interest in summiting Mount Washington

[01:31:03] again, because Jeff viewed that as progression toward his start, his, that pull that was

[01:31:10] beginning toward higher peaks elsewhere.

[01:31:13] Um, he was not a summit driven person.

[01:31:16] He was a root driven person that there's a difference, you know, Hugh, uh, got focused

[01:31:22] on roots, um, trying to climb and continue to climb at a higher and higher level was not

[01:31:29] driven to stand on the top of mountains.

[01:31:31] I mean, he had done that before, but that was not the driving force for him back then.

[01:31:36] So it was brought up in the car ride.

[01:31:38] Uh, and then it kind of just faded away.

[01:31:41] It was not discussed in the cabin in the presence of the others that were there.

[01:31:46] Um, so this was just an informal plan that existed between the two of them.

[01:31:51] Um, and when they signed out of the cabin that morning, uh, they, they only indicated they

[01:31:56] were doing a, uh, Odell and escape hatch and back.

[01:31:59] And that's what everyone believed that they were, were going to be doing.

[01:32:03] And they got to the top of Odell and the weather was definitely turning.

[01:32:07] Visibility was not good.

[01:32:09] Uh, and I, that's where this story takes a, a significant turn.

[01:32:15] Yeah.

[01:32:15] Cause the rescue is so basically based on this weather, there would be the likelihood of

[01:32:21] them turning to go up to the summit or going anywhere in that direction based on number

[01:32:26] one, what most climbers actually do.

[01:32:29] And then number two, based on the weather, nobody would have assumed that they actually

[01:32:33] would have gone up to the summit.

[01:32:35] Right.

[01:32:35] Huntington climbers.

[01:32:37] Um, generally you, again, you ascended your gully, uh, you descended escape hatch and went

[01:32:43] over to Lionhead as Rick Wilcox would tell you going to the summit.

[01:32:47] That's a different trip altogether.

[01:32:49] Yeah.

[01:32:49] Uh, and yeah.

[01:32:50] And it's, it's, it's not part of the equation and I'm not going to say it never happened,

[01:32:56] but to go from hunting to the summit was a, it was, it would have been a rare occurrence.

[01:33:01] It's another thousand feet.

[01:33:02] It still is.

[01:33:02] Yeah.

[01:33:03] It's another thousand feet roughly.

[01:33:04] And they're in minus 32 wind chill already and wind snow blowing.

[01:33:08] Yeah.

[01:33:09] Even in the summer, I've done that.

[01:33:11] I've gone up Huntington and I've got to Alpine garden and I've looked over to Lionhead and

[01:33:14] I've been like, yeah, I'm just going to go there and hang out and then come down and

[01:33:19] call it a day.

[01:33:19] It's a great day.

[01:33:20] Yeah.

[01:33:20] And we're missing a glove already.

[01:33:22] Yes.

[01:33:24] So, but you know, they do make that decision ultimately.

[01:33:27] They, they, they even regard, regardless of the weather and their gear, they do decide

[01:33:34] they're going to go for it.

[01:33:35] Yeah.

[01:33:35] And I, and I think this is where it comes, the complexity comes in.

[01:33:38] I, you know, Jeff had been a loyal friend and companion, climbing companion for Hugh

[01:33:46] and really helped Hugh just by Jeff's presence on belay, being out with him on routes, going

[01:33:54] out together to do these things really helped Hugh in his progression, um, to continue to

[01:34:01] build his expertise.

[01:34:03] And I think what you saw here is that Hugh, uh, they had written off the summit when they

[01:34:09] left Harvard cabin and they got up onto the floor of the ravine and they started to get

[01:34:15] a view of what was going on higher up.

[01:34:17] They had written off the clock.

[01:34:19] They had written off a summit bid.

[01:34:20] Uh, this is before the ice climb.

[01:34:22] They'd written it off.

[01:34:23] They stashed the pack, not unreasonable given what they had planned to do.

[01:34:28] But when they got to the top of the gully, it was a, it was an impulsive, um, you know,

[01:34:35] Jeff, I think we can, I think we can, we can do this.

[01:34:37] Let's go to the summit.

[01:34:39] Jeff had some reservation, but Jeff would tell you today, I always had reservation when

[01:34:43] I, when I went out with Hugh because I did have fear.

[01:34:48] Um, I, I was out of my comfort zone a lot, but he said he was always there supporting

[01:34:53] me, encouraging me, um, and being patient with me to help move me out of that fear and,

[01:35:00] and, um, embrace that discomfort.

[01:35:02] And I think what you saw here was a situation where I think he, you know, he wanted, he

[01:35:11] wanted to do this for Jeff.

[01:35:14] Hugh didn't want to go to the summit, but he wanted to go to the summit with Jeff for Jeff.

[01:35:19] Yeah.

[01:35:20] Yeah.

[01:35:20] It's, and it's interesting too.

[01:35:22] I wonder like if they had gone up a different route and taken, it had taken them longer

[01:35:28] or they had faced more adversity than Odell, maybe their perspective would have changed,

[01:35:33] but you never know.

[01:35:34] Um, but they, they, so they're, they're going up, um, at what point does Matt at the Harvard

[01:35:40] cabin?

[01:35:40] So he's, he's basically aware that the conditions aren't great.

[01:35:44] He thinks that he's given advice to Hugh and Jeff, and then he's got another group of

[01:35:47] climbers that are out there.

[01:35:48] So is it normal, normal for the, the, the Harvard cabin caretaker?

[01:35:55] Does he, he basically is just waiting all day to make sure these climbers get back.

[01:35:59] Um, at what point and how long in the, into the day did he start getting nervous?

[01:36:04] Yeah.

[01:36:05] Well, you know, and the caretaker, they're, they're able to go out and do hikes on their

[01:36:09] own.

[01:36:10] Um, you know, they're stacking wood.

[01:36:13] They're just doing general maintenance and caretaking.

[01:36:16] Um, obviously they're, they're paying attention to the, the sign out log.

[01:36:21] Uh, but Matt actually that morning, not long after Jeff and Hugh, and then the second climbing

[01:36:27] party of three went out, Matt went up into the ravine and he saw that Hugh and Jeff were

[01:36:33] on Odell and he thought, okay, they, they, they listened to my, you know, gentle guidance.

[01:36:40] Uh, this is a good thing.

[01:36:42] They're going to do Odell and they're going to come down a skate patch.

[01:36:44] Um, and he turned and he, and he went back down the mountain.

[01:36:47] And I think it was, um, it was after the third, the, the other climbing party returned and

[01:36:54] now you're starting to move into evening.

[01:36:56] That's when he started to get concerned that something might be wrong.

[01:37:00] Uh, because it is, it was not uncommon for people to go out on adventures and, and come

[01:37:06] back late.

[01:37:07] But this was getting later the, by that time, the weather was really bad.

[01:37:11] And so he and a, um, a couple of other climbers from the cabin headed back up into the ravine

[01:37:17] that night watching for headlamps in the, in the gullies, uh, to see if they might be

[01:37:23] in trouble up there or descending.

[01:37:25] Yeah.

[01:37:26] And, and it's tough to know exactly.

[01:37:29] Like, I don't even think Hugh and Jeff actually know where exactly where they ended up on Mount

[01:37:35] Washington that day.

[01:37:36] They did not know.

[01:37:37] Yeah.

[01:37:37] They thought they knew, but they didn't know.

[01:37:40] They thought they were at the top of central gully.

[01:37:42] Yeah.

[01:37:42] They thought they, you know, and the ironic thing is, um, when they made the decision

[01:37:47] to bail, uh, they were heading to the gully that that second climbing party was, had talked

[01:37:54] out on.

[01:37:56] Yeah.

[01:37:57] But ultimately they ended up, they will probably higher up on the mountain, maybe ball crag,

[01:38:03] Nelson crag, something along.

[01:38:05] They were near home stretch.

[01:38:06] Yep.

[01:38:06] Okay.

[01:38:06] And then eventually they ended up coming down.

[01:38:11] They thought that they might've been coming down to Huntington, but ultimately where they

[01:38:16] ended up was somewhere between Wamsuda and Chandler Brook.

[01:38:20] Yeah.

[01:38:20] In a drainage.

[01:38:21] In a drainage.

[01:38:22] So my, so I, as a matter of fact, I was on Chandler Brook this summer and I don't know,

[01:38:27] like I Wamsuda, I'm not familiar with, but I can tell you that that area is super steep,

[01:38:33] but it could be that with the drainage frozen over and snow on there that, you know, they

[01:38:38] might've found, you know, once they find that drainage, it's, you know, there's a little

[01:38:42] bit of open trees there.

[01:38:43] You can slide your way down.

[01:38:44] Would not have been a fun trip down at all.

[01:38:48] Well, for them, actually, they found, um, that they could make pretty good time.

[01:38:52] They were plunged stepping down.

[01:38:54] Yep.

[01:38:54] Um, and they thought, they actually thought given the conditions and the speed with which

[01:39:00] they were descending, not only have we found the right spot, but this is, this descent

[01:39:05] back into the floor of Huntington Ravine is going quickly and well.

[01:39:09] And I think it wasn't until they got down at treeline.

[01:39:12] Um, and Hugh before Jeff noted, he started to get the sense that they were not where they

[01:39:19] had planned to be.

[01:39:20] Yeah.

[01:39:20] So they're in, they end up entering into the great golf.

[01:39:23] And then once you get to the floor of the great golf, you've got nightmare, nightmare

[01:39:28] scenario because you've got snow building up and, um, there's nowhere for that snow to

[01:39:33] go.

[01:39:33] So you're very quickly burning energy.

[01:39:36] And it's loading in because of the snow storm and the direction of the wind at that time.

[01:39:41] Yeah.

[01:39:41] And they really, what, what did they have on them for gear?

[01:39:45] They just, they, they had their technical gear.

[01:39:47] They had their harnesses and their, um, ice screws, some chocks.

[01:39:50] Uh, they had the rope and their two ice, they each had two ice axes.

[01:39:54] Um, and they quickly, uh, jettison the rope and the technical gear and they kept their ice

[01:40:01] axes.

[01:40:01] And basically it was what they were wearing is what they had with them.

[01:40:06] So they're in blizzard conditions, freezing cold weather, not in Huntington.

[01:40:12] They fall into the great golf and, um, they're, they're faced with tough conditions.

[01:40:17] The heart of darkness.

[01:40:19] Yes.

[01:40:19] The heart of darkness.

[01:40:20] Um, so I think, and then at that point, Matt is aware it's getting to be nighttime.

[01:40:27] Yep.

[01:40:28] Um, he at some point decides like, I've got a trigger or search here.

[01:40:33] He, he goes to find, he goes to take a look and see what's going on in the ravine and finds

[01:40:38] their, their extra gear in there.

[01:40:41] Yep.

[01:40:42] So, um, Stomp, I think maybe this is the, this is where we stop and then we'll pick it

[01:40:48] up on.

[01:40:48] And it's probably a good time to continue on.

[01:40:51] Sounds good.

[01:40:53] Incredible talk so far.

[01:40:54] So next episode we will continue.

[01:40:57] Yeah.

[01:40:57] So we'll next episode, we'll cover the, um, the search and rescue gets, gets basically

[01:41:04] kicked off and then we'll talk about where Jeff and Hugh end up over the next two nights

[01:41:09] and then the, uh, uh, the eventual, um, end of the rescue and then the, the, the, the

[01:41:16] aftermath of that.

[01:41:17] Okay.

[01:41:22] Thank you for listening.

[01:41:23] If you enjoyed the show, you can subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, pod beam, YouTube,

[01:41:30] or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:41:34] If you want to learn more about the topics covered in today's show, please check out

[01:41:38] the show notes and safety information at slasher podcast.com.

[01:41:43] That's S L A S R podcast.com.

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[01:41:51] We hope you'll join us next week for another great show.

[01:41:54] Until then on behalf of Mike and stop.

[01:41:57] Get out there and crush some mega peace.

[01:42:31] Now covered in scratches,

[01:42:36] Lieutenant James Nealon,

[01:42:37] Lieutenant James Nealon, New Hampshire fish and game.

[01:42:38] Thanks for being with us today.

[01:42:40] Thanks for having me.

[01:42:41] What are some of the most common mistakes you see people make when they're heading out on

[01:42:44] the trails to hike here in New Hampshire?

[01:42:46] It seems to me the most common is being unprepared.

[01:42:48] And I think if they just simply visited a hike,

[01:42:50] safe.com and get a list of the 10 essential items and had those in their packs,

[01:42:54] they probably would have no need to ever call us at all.

[01:42:57] Thank you.