Episode 178 - Ty Gagne Joins us to talk about The Lions of Winter - Part 2 of 2

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[00:01:43] From the great state of New Hampshire, welcome to the Sounds Like a Search and Rescue podcast, where we discuss all things related to hiking and search and rescue in the White Mountains of New Hampshire.

[00:02:39] Here are your hosts, Mike and Stump.

[00:03:02] Overtime tonight.

[00:03:05] Yes, sir.

[00:03:06] Part two with Ty.

[00:03:08] Thanks for coming back.

[00:03:10] Glad to be back.

[00:03:11] Thank you.

[00:03:14] So where are we now?

[00:03:15] Um, so we are on episode 178, part two with Ty talking about the Lions of Winter.

[00:03:23] That's right.

[00:03:24] Only one more episode before the end of the year for us.

[00:03:27] Yeah, yeah.

[00:03:27] Hey, what made you choose that title?

[00:03:30] Um, it has a dual meaning.

[00:03:33] Um, I think I looked at, I looked at the, um, the climbers from back in that generation.

[00:03:41] Um, they were bold.

[00:03:42] They were continuously trying to get better, um, and labeled that, you know, young lions.

[00:03:49] And then obviously the tragedy that befell, um, Albert on occurred on Lionhead.

[00:03:55] Uh, and that's where the Lions of Winter came in.

[00:03:58] Makes sense.

[00:03:59] Makes sense.

[00:04:00] Did you have any other alternative titles?

[00:04:02] No, I, I came to that title really, really early in the process.

[00:04:07] Have you always had, have you had any problems with titles before in any of your books?

[00:04:11] Uh, no, no, those, those, they, they become pretty clear.

[00:04:14] I think as the research unfolds.

[00:04:17] Yeah.

[00:04:18] Yeah.

[00:04:18] No, that makes sense.

[00:04:19] So, um, because it's, I would imagine that, um, typically like as you're writing, it just,

[00:04:26] it becomes obvious.

[00:04:27] Yeah.

[00:04:28] Yeah.

[00:04:28] It did.

[00:04:29] It definitely did in this case sooner rather than later.

[00:04:32] Awesome.

[00:04:33] Um, so Stomp, I guess we left off with, uh, we had done a recap of, um, the, the, the story

[00:04:40] of, um, the rescue of Hugh Herr and Jeff Batzer.

[00:04:45] And then we had talked a little bit about Albert Dow, who unfortunately had lost his life in,

[00:04:49] in this, this four day rescue event.

[00:04:52] Um, but the way we left things was that Hugh and Jeff had made their way up Huntington Ravine.

[00:04:58] Um, they had decided that they were going to continue on to summit Mount Washington.

[00:05:02] The weather conditions were pretty brutal that day.

[00:05:04] So they got turned around unbeknownst to them.

[00:05:07] They thought they were getting back into Huntington.

[00:05:09] They ended up into the great Gulf.

[00:05:11] They somehow made their way down near, um, Chandler Brook and Wamsuda area and ended up

[00:05:18] on Saturday night on the great, on the great Gulf trail.

[00:05:23] West branch of the Peabody.

[00:05:25] Yeah.

[00:05:25] West branch of the Peabody.

[00:05:26] Yeah.

[00:05:27] Which is probably, um, so if you are familiar with the area, you come up the great Gulf trail

[00:05:32] from the trailhead, you cross over, um, Madison Gulf.

[00:05:37] And then if you, you go forward another mile, mile and a half, you get up to the intersection

[00:05:42] of Wamsuda and Chandler Brook.

[00:05:44] Um, you're deep, deep right in the middle of the great Gulf at that point.

[00:05:48] So it's, it's, it's a pretty flattish area there and that's where the snow collects.

[00:05:53] So they're, they're basically looking at no snowshoes, no gear, and they've got to make

[00:05:58] their way.

[00:05:59] No shelter.

[00:05:59] Yeah.

[00:06:00] And no, no sense of where they should go either.

[00:06:02] Right.

[00:06:03] So it's, it's ugly.

[00:06:04] But at that point, Matt, Matt Pierce at the, the Harvard cabin, um, had interacted with

[00:06:09] them.

[00:06:10] He's, he had a small group of, of climbers there.

[00:06:13] Um, so he knew pretty quickly that them not, that they're not coming back was a bad sign.

[00:06:17] Right.

[00:06:18] And he started to make notifications.

[00:06:20] Yeah.

[00:06:20] So how does that all work back in 1982 when, you know, we don't have a satellite communication

[00:06:25] or anything?

[00:06:26] So he radioed down, he had a base radio at Harvard cabin.

[00:06:29] When you radioed down to Pinkham, uh, and then Pinkham, uh, had staff, uh, night watch, uh,

[00:06:36] that were there for this kind of thing, but they would just general caretaking overnight,

[00:06:41] um, of the grounds because they would often have people obviously staying there.

[00:06:45] But, uh, then phone calls are made to New Hampshire fishing game, United States forest

[00:06:51] service, mountain rescue service.

[00:06:53] Is the, uh, the people that are doing those phone calls, um, uh, I'm assuming it's, it's

[00:06:58] likely the, the folks that are at Pinkham not coordinating.

[00:07:01] Yep.

[00:07:01] Two people were doing it.

[00:07:02] Not it.

[00:07:02] And then at what point does the forest service get involved in that?

[00:07:05] They got notified that night and then they responded the next morning.

[00:07:08] The next morning.

[00:07:09] And then the word gets out to the rescue teams.

[00:07:11] Right.

[00:07:11] Okay.

[00:07:12] We probably got to get out there and take a look.

[00:07:14] Yep.

[00:07:14] Now, what was Matt doing on Saturday night at that point?

[00:07:17] On Saturday night, he was just, um, I would say he was sitting in the cabin.

[00:07:21] Um, trying to stay busy, um, waiting for the door to open and for Jeff and Hugh to walk

[00:07:28] in.

[00:07:28] Obviously that did not happen.

[00:07:30] Uh, but they also, it's not like people are up late.

[00:07:34] I mean, Harvard cabin back then, um, probably didn't have some of the amenities that they

[00:07:40] have today.

[00:07:41] He, you know, he would let the fire kind of draw down on purpose toward the end of the

[00:07:47] night just to encourage people to climb the loft and get into their sleeping bag.

[00:07:51] So not a lot to do there.

[00:07:53] Dark, you know, short winter's night gets dark early.

[00:07:56] Yeah.

[00:07:56] And that, that Sunday, who was some of the key players, um, involved in the rescue or

[00:08:00] the organization on Sunday morning?

[00:08:03] Sunday morning was, uh, Mount Rescue Service, um, was sent up the auto road, um, in the

[00:08:09] Thiacal.

[00:08:10] Um, and their intent was to, um, disembark at probably the seven mile mark.

[00:08:17] And then they were going to take Huntington ravine trail down to the rim.

[00:08:20] And their intent was to establish an anchor at the top of Odell and, and send a team member

[00:08:26] or two down in, uh, to see if they had been hung up in the gullies.

[00:08:30] Because as I learned in my research that that had happened before in 1979, two climbers had,

[00:08:37] um, attempted to climb Odell and, um, ended up in the gully, um, in trouble.

[00:08:44] So, uh, that wasn't able to happen because the weather was so bad above treeline.

[00:08:50] They, they got off their Thiacal at the five mile mark, uh, tried to get up, um, to where

[00:08:56] they had originally intended to go.

[00:08:58] And I think at probably just before six mile, they got driven, driven back down the mountain.

[00:09:03] Um, a few mountain rescue service for service and AMC folks went, uh, into Huntington ravine,

[00:09:12] not to climb the gullies, but to search the floor and the fan.

[00:09:15] Uh, because again, it's not uncommon to get avalanched or fall out of the gullies and end up

[00:09:20] on the fan.

[00:09:21] And so they were checking the gullies themselves visually and, uh, without climbing up them.

[00:09:26] And it took them quite a lot, long time to, to, to get to the point where they felt like

[00:09:30] they had cleared the Huntington ravine and all those routes.

[00:09:33] Yeah.

[00:09:34] And they, and they left.

[00:09:35] And then there was another team on Sunday, uh, of AMC team of, uh, five that ascended line

[00:09:41] head.

[00:09:42] Uh, but they were not able to clear the gullies.

[00:09:45] Um, and certainly not Odell gully on, um, on Sunday, two climbers from Harvard cabin on

[00:09:52] Sunday morning, got up really early, went to Odell, started to climb it.

[00:09:58] Um, Misha Kirk was already in the ravine because he, he headed up there about four in the morning

[00:10:03] on foot.

[00:10:04] They didn't see each other.

[00:10:05] That's how bad the weather was.

[00:10:07] Um, and, um, they got a pitch up Odell and they just felt there was just too much risk

[00:10:15] of avalanche because again, the, the winds had shifted from South to, to West overnight

[00:10:20] and, um, the Eastern aspects of, of Mount Washington, which includes Huntington, Tuckerman,

[00:10:27] Raymond were loading overnight.

[00:10:29] So, um, they made the, the decision to turn and descend.

[00:10:33] Now, Misha Kirk, you had the, you, you had the good fortune of being able to, um, read his

[00:10:38] journal and get his perspective.

[00:10:41] Um, you know, he recorded these pretty close to the real time and when they happened, can

[00:10:45] you talk a little bit about him and, and what, what, what was he like as a person and what

[00:10:49] was his impression of the events?

[00:10:51] So Misha was, um, he arrived, um, at Pinkham after being discharged from the army.

[00:10:58] He was, um, a green beret with 10th group, 10th group, which at the time 10th group was

[00:11:03] based out of, uh, Fort Devens in Massachusetts.

[00:11:05] They're now in, uh, based in Colorado.

[00:11:08] Um, he was a light weapon specialist.

[00:11:12] He was, uh, um, a medic and, um, he, he was a bad-ass.

[00:11:18] And he arrived here.

[00:11:21] He, he had used strong climbing skills, um, integrated well into the AMC culture.

[00:11:28] Um, and at the same time was, as you can imagine, structured, driven, um, had that kind of command

[00:11:36] and control or about him during, um, emergencies, during rescues.

[00:11:43] And sometimes, and, and talking with his partner, um, she's very forthcoming about this, which

[00:11:50] is why I was comfortable sharing it.

[00:11:51] But, you know, sometimes that, uh, approach would, would rub the climbing community the

[00:11:57] wrong way.

[00:11:58] So there were times where, um, there was a, there was a little bit of tension between,

[00:12:03] um, you know, that, that military approach and, and the very much more laid back approach

[00:12:12] of a, as you might imagine of a climber outdoor, outdoor person.

[00:12:16] And I think you need a balance of perspectives probably.

[00:12:18] So it's probably a healthy thing to have that, that push and pull because you're right.

[00:12:22] I think that, um, I don't know, hikers even, I don't know a lot about climbers, but my impression

[00:12:27] is, is that, yeah, they can be pretty loosey goosey about things and you need some discipline.

[00:12:33] Yeah.

[00:12:33] And, and, and I'm, and I don't want to generalize the climbing community cause I, I climb.

[00:12:37] So I, and I can't say everybody's the same, but you could, you could tell just through

[00:12:42] research and, and talking with people, um, people really, really liked and respected Misha.

[00:12:49] And then there, you know, there were a few people who, you know, just felt like maybe

[00:12:53] a bit overbearing, but during emergencies and, but that's how he was, that's what you're

[00:13:00] trained for.

[00:13:00] Yeah.

[00:13:01] Me or Green Beret.

[00:13:02] I get it.

[00:13:03] And a medic.

[00:13:03] Exactly.

[00:13:04] So that Sunday, um, they're not having a lot of luck.

[00:13:08] No.

[00:13:09] They're trying to clear the, and their focus is almost a hundred percent on Huntington and

[00:13:13] trying to clear that area.

[00:13:14] They're not thinking at all that, that, that they went up to the summit and they have no

[00:13:19] idea that they're actually in the great gullet.

[00:13:21] No, they had no idea.

[00:13:21] They continued to the summit.

[00:13:22] They anticipated.

[00:13:24] Again, they thought, okay, had they gotten hurt in a gully?

[00:13:28] Were they avalanched out of a gully?

[00:13:30] Might they have ended up in Raymond Cataract?

[00:13:32] Um, are they in trouble on, on line in the Alpine garden?

[00:13:35] Because we know that second climbing party that was out the same day, Jeff and Hugh were

[00:13:40] they, I mean, they basically got pinned in Alpine garden, had to crawl to escape hatch.

[00:13:46] Um, and that wasn't long after, uh, Hugh and Jeff topped out.

[00:13:50] So no, they didn't know they went to the summit and, um, a client climbers from Huntington ravine

[00:13:57] had, who had run into trouble, had never ended up in hunting in great golf before it hadn't

[00:14:03] happened before.

[00:14:05] And it hasn't happened since it just, that's something that just doesn't and didn't happen.

[00:14:10] And what was Albert doing during the search on Sunday?

[00:14:14] Albert was, um, on the auto road in the, uh, with the team that was, uh, to, uh, what was

[00:14:22] going to happen is once mountain rescue service arrived at the rim, um, of Odell in Huntington,

[00:14:30] a part of that team was going to break up because there was 10 or 11 of them was going to break

[00:14:35] off and go across the garden, um, and descend lion head.

[00:14:40] Um, and you had that other team that was ascending lion head and was going to come across the garden.

[00:14:44] So they were trying, what they were trying to do is cover as much acreage as they could.

[00:14:49] Um, and Albert was on his assignment was to get to the rim of Huntington and then along with some

[00:14:56] other teammates go across the Alpine garden and descend lion head.

[00:14:59] But ultimately that, that just didn't happen.

[00:15:02] They were not able to get up on high up onto the mountain at all.

[00:15:04] Yeah.

[00:15:05] And the team, so they weren't successful in locating them on, on Sunday.

[00:15:09] So, um, was there any question in any of the team members minds about like getting back

[00:15:14] out there on Monday at that point?

[00:15:15] No, I, you know, I think there was some frustration on Sunday afternoon coming back to Pinkham that,

[00:15:20] you know, where are these guys?

[00:15:22] What, you know, usually there's some sign, uh, that they might be somewhere and that there

[00:15:28] just wasn't.

[00:15:29] And again, you have, you have these climbers that are, are very, um, acclimated and really

[00:15:34] really bad weather, but they couldn't get anywhere that they really wanted to go.

[00:15:40] Um, and again, Odell went unsearched.

[00:15:45] Can we go back to, um, what Jeff, um, and Hugh are going through Saturday night?

[00:15:52] Um, they, they bought them out at Chandler.

[00:15:55] They didn't have headlamps, right?

[00:15:56] Is that what they, that stopped them in their tracks and how deep is the snow?

[00:16:01] What's the temperature doing?

[00:16:02] How did.

[00:16:03] So from the moment they, they got toward the floor of the ravine and again, they thought,

[00:16:08] they thought they were in central, uh, that they had descended central gully and were in

[00:16:12] the floor of Huntington.

[00:16:13] And then they're like, well, maybe we went too far over and now we're in Tuckerman.

[00:16:18] Um, so they're really disoriented, but when they got to the floor of the ravine and they

[00:16:22] started to link up with the West branch of the Peabody, um, you know, the snow was what

[00:16:29] was shin deep on the plunge step, um, is now at their knee, thigh, waist, chest.

[00:16:38] Uh, and it would, it would, it would, um, fluctuate between chest high, uh, and waist high,

[00:16:45] deep snow.

[00:16:45] And over the course of this, just, um, busting trail along the West branch, you have heavy

[00:16:52] scrub back there toward the back of a great Gulf.

[00:16:55] So they're, they're trying to work through that.

[00:16:59] They have to go around it.

[00:17:00] They're afraid of crossing the river because they're afraid they're going to fall in.

[00:17:04] Um, occasionally they're using, uh, blow downs, um, to cross the river.

[00:17:09] And there are two occasions on Saturday when a hue does fall in the water.

[00:17:15] The second time of which, you know, Jeff had to essentially help him out.

[00:17:19] So Jeff, he got wet, uh, quickly and, and was unable to change his clothes.

[00:17:26] Yeah.

[00:17:27] So they're in, they're in deep, deep trouble, but luckily, you know, the strength of young

[00:17:32] men is something that, um, you can't discount in these situations, but, um, you know, that,

[00:17:39] that environment, I haven't been in the great Gulf in the winter past.

[00:17:44] I think I went up Osgoode one time.

[00:17:46] So I did the lower part, but I haven't gone across Madison Gulf up into that area.

[00:17:51] I've been there many times in the summer.

[00:17:53] Uh, but I can't imagine trying to make my way through there.

[00:17:56] I mean, it does make sense that they were able to sort of stick by the Peabody river, um,

[00:18:00] and come through, but like, it's just a very narrow trail there.

[00:18:04] And it's not obvious in the winter with their, when there's snow out there.

[00:18:07] So I could see why they would be attracted to go in and out of the, out of the river,

[00:18:12] because that's really the only direction they could go.

[00:18:14] Yeah.

[00:18:14] They, they were really limited on where they could move snow depth and just vegetation.

[00:18:19] Yeah.

[00:18:19] So as this is going on, so they're making their, they are making their, even with all this

[00:18:24] said, they are making their way in the right direction and heading down the great Gulf trail.

[00:18:28] But at the same time, there's a couple of hikers that have arrived at Pinkham Notch.

[00:18:33] Yeah.

[00:18:33] And it's, it's an interesting dynamic in the book because, um, you know, we talk about the

[00:18:38] fast and light.

[00:18:39] Then you've got these two hikers that show up and they're like the, the stomp.

[00:18:45] Slow.

[00:18:46] Super heavy and slow.

[00:18:47] Super heavy and slow.

[00:18:48] Like so slow that they, um, from Pinkham Notch to-

[00:18:52] Wait a minute.

[00:18:52] Did you say stomp?

[00:18:53] I said, yeah, stomp.

[00:18:54] Like stomp.

[00:18:55] Heavy and slow.

[00:18:56] Yes.

[00:18:57] Yeah.

[00:18:58] Heavy and slow gear, not, not your body.

[00:19:01] So, um, but so these two hikers, they're setting off, um, and old Jackson, I think from Pinkham

[00:19:10] Notch to the old Jackson, the intersection to get to the auto road, I've hiked this many

[00:19:14] times.

[00:19:15] I think it's maybe about a mile and a half.

[00:19:17] Um, and they, they made their way a little past, um, this section.

[00:19:24] I think that's called Bald Spur is, is a nice little viewpoint.

[00:19:27] Right.

[00:19:28] Yeah.

[00:19:28] They had Lowe's?

[00:19:29] Lowe's.

[00:19:30] Yeah.

[00:19:30] Lowe's.

[00:19:30] Yeah.

[00:19:31] Yeah.

[00:19:31] So they, um, I want to make sure I get this correct.

[00:19:35] They arrived, um, Saturday, I think Saturday night and they ended up on the Sherby and they

[00:19:43] didn't end up on old Jackson.

[00:19:45] They, they camped out.

[00:19:46] It's like blizzard.

[00:19:47] Yeah.

[00:19:47] Yeah.

[00:19:48] Yeah.

[00:19:48] So the Sherby's like, they made it about five feet from the parking lot.

[00:19:50] Yeah.

[00:19:51] It was a, it was a thing.

[00:19:52] And I actually met one of them the other night in person at, uh, Gibbs since he had driven

[00:19:56] up from Massachusetts.

[00:19:58] I had, I'd only interviewed him.

[00:19:59] It was awesome.

[00:20:00] Wow.

[00:20:00] Cool.

[00:20:01] To, to, to spend, and I got to introduce him to Albert's sister and it was just a really

[00:20:05] neat moment.

[00:20:06] Um, so, um, they were slow going.

[00:20:10] So then on Sunday, um, they, they, and they're, they're, you know, they're getting up late.

[00:20:17] They're just, they're moving at such a slow pace.

[00:20:19] Um, and they, there's still be, they still beat themselves, uh, themselves up about that

[00:20:24] today.

[00:20:25] Right.

[00:20:25] Uh, in a, in a joking manner, but, um, they actually encounter, uh, Misha Kirk, um, who is

[00:20:32] coming out of her, um, Hermit.

[00:20:34] Um, he's coming down the tux trail and he gets them reoriented back onto old Jackson.

[00:20:42] Um, so just, it's just, and I think, um, it was just remarkable to talk to them about that

[00:20:49] encounter with Misha and then to be reading Misha's encounter with them, um, in his journal.

[00:20:55] It was just, uh, it was just a gift.

[00:20:58] Yeah.

[00:20:58] And it's so funny because you can't just go on your phone and see like, oh, you know,

[00:21:02] you go on, see social media sites and say, oh, there's an act of rescue going on.

[00:21:05] Like they kind of knew from Misha that something was going on, but they didn't know the details.

[00:21:09] Misha didn't say a word to them about it.

[00:21:11] Uh, they did encounter a woman who, um, somewhere along the trail, they're not sure where, but

[00:21:18] who was really distraught that, that there were two climbers missing.

[00:21:22] Okay.

[00:21:22] So that's where they got the tip off.

[00:21:24] But so they're making their way up old Jackson.

[00:21:27] So old Jackson crosses the auto road and then enters the great golf.

[00:21:31] And you can follow that into, it connects with Madison Gulf trail and it's a nice winter

[00:21:36] hike.

[00:21:37] It's a flat.

[00:21:37] It's part of the hike.

[00:21:38] Part of the AT.

[00:21:39] Yes.

[00:21:40] Yeah.

[00:21:40] So, so they're making their way.

[00:21:42] Um, the rescue team is striking out on Sunday.

[00:21:48] Um, and then talk, can you talk about Sunday night?

[00:21:50] What was Sunday night like for Hugh and Jeff?

[00:21:53] Yeah.

[00:21:53] So Sunday night, um, the backpackers that we were just talking about, they camp on old

[00:21:58] Jackson.

[00:21:59] Yeah.

[00:21:59] Um, and, um, Hugh and Jeff on Sunday night.

[00:22:05] Uh, so this is night two.

[00:22:07] Yeah.

[00:22:07] Uh, night one, they had found a, a bivouac, um, under a boulder.

[00:22:11] It took them some time.

[00:22:12] Uh, they, they had tested a couple of different spots.

[00:22:15] It didn't work out.

[00:22:16] Um, they had done, I mean, you're talking primitive skills and this goes back to, I really

[00:22:23] believe it goes back to that resiliency, uh, and self-reliance that their parents instilled

[00:22:28] in them at a young age, getting them out camping.

[00:22:31] Uh, but they knew they had the wherewithal to, uh, cut off boughs of, of spruce and fir,

[00:22:38] created a very, very thick bed of spruce and fir.

[00:22:40] Uh, for night one.

[00:22:42] Um, and that really helped them to maintain core body temperature.

[00:22:47] Jeff had given Hugh some of his clothing.

[00:22:50] Um, and they had, so on Sunday morning, they had gotten up and started to make their way

[00:22:55] down.

[00:22:56] The golf started picking up trailblazes.

[00:22:58] Um, and they arrive on Sunday, uh, morning at the, at great golf, Madison golf trail junction.

[00:23:05] Yeah.

[00:23:06] And all things considered, they are actually doing okay.

[00:23:09] Um, they're self-rescuing.

[00:23:10] I mean, they, they're doing the work to get out.

[00:23:13] They had no, they didn't think there would even be a rescue effort or search effort underway.

[00:23:20] They were just like, we ended up here.

[00:23:22] We're, we're, we're going to get out of here.

[00:23:23] Yeah.

[00:23:24] Yeah.

[00:23:24] And it seemed like they each had their moments where they would lead the other one.

[00:23:27] So there was a back and forth, I think of like, one of them would feel better and take

[00:23:31] the lead and stay positive.

[00:23:33] And when another one of them was down, so they went back and forth quite a bit, I think.

[00:23:37] Yeah.

[00:23:37] Um, Hugh did a lot of the, of the busting, um, uh, probably the, the lion's share of it.

[00:23:43] And there's no food intake, no water and no water, no food.

[00:23:46] So what's the hypothermia situation at the moment?

[00:23:49] Well, right.

[00:23:50] I mean, right now, um, you know, as we're sitting here talking, you would think they're,

[00:23:56] they're becoming hypothermic, but what's really happening is, um, it's, it's the, it's

[00:24:01] frostbite there.

[00:24:02] They're, you know, Hugh is having great difficulty.

[00:24:05] They, they have, they took their boots off on, um, on Saturday night.

[00:24:10] They had a really hard time getting them back on Sunday morning.

[00:24:12] Uh, they took their boots off again, um, on Sunday and it just, it created a real problem

[00:24:20] for them.

[00:24:21] And so it was less about it.

[00:24:23] Um, it was less of a hypothermia scenarios.

[00:24:27] It was much more so a frostbite situation for both of them.

[00:24:30] Yeah.

[00:24:31] And I think you, you cover a little bit about this, um, medically, but, um, based on what

[00:24:36] you've read about this and what you've seen, if someone's face was this, this situation,

[00:24:41] like you just kind of got to keep your boots on.

[00:24:43] You keep your boots on.

[00:24:44] Yep.

[00:24:44] Yep.

[00:24:45] Because you can at least still walk.

[00:24:46] Yeah.

[00:24:47] Yeah.

[00:24:47] The damage is already done one way or the other.

[00:24:49] And I, that was Gordon Giesbrek, who I, I think I've talked to for all three books

[00:24:53] because he's a cold weather expert.

[00:24:56] Um, and he likens it to, you know, when, when you get, if you're playing hockey and you get

[00:25:00] a puck at your skate.

[00:25:02] Yeah.

[00:25:02] If you take your skate off your, your foot's going to blow up.

[00:25:05] So you just keep it on and, and keep going.

[00:25:08] So, and that's why hockey players are among the toughest athletes out there.

[00:25:12] Right.

[00:25:12] Yeah.

[00:25:13] And the craziest.

[00:25:13] I would agree.

[00:25:14] Yeah.

[00:25:14] The craziest too.

[00:25:15] Um, and then the wind chill, we're talking like minus 30 wind chill over the course of

[00:25:19] those couple of days.

[00:25:20] They, wind chill was not a, really a factor for Hugh and Jeff because they were far enough

[00:25:24] below treeline.

[00:25:25] But what I was able to do with the Mount Washington observatory was, uh, to work with a meteorologist

[00:25:30] to calculate because they don't, obviously there were no mesonets back then.

[00:25:34] Um, and certainly not any in great golf, even I think today.

[00:25:39] Um, but they were able to help me calculate, um, a certain amount of sky cover and drop

[00:25:45] in elevation that this is, um, what the temperature, um, rises as the, the lower down the mountain

[00:25:52] you got.

[00:25:53] So I was able to work with elevation and looking at the ambient temperature at the summit of

[00:25:58] Mount Washington and doing the math to get, um, a basic idea of what the temperature was

[00:26:04] in great golf, but they were out of the wind.

[00:26:05] Okay.

[00:26:06] Yeah.

[00:26:06] Well, in the, uh, in Odell's there's one picture in the book where the, the film froze

[00:26:11] because it was like minus 70.

[00:26:13] On the Monday search, uh, the, the film froze solid.

[00:26:18] Jeez.

[00:26:19] It's hardcore.

[00:26:20] You know what that's going to do to your skin within 30 seconds to a minute.

[00:26:24] So Sunday night, the rescue team struck out, you know, you do have a couple of hikers that

[00:26:28] are heading in the right direction to, uh, to intersect with, with Jeff and Hugh.

[00:26:33] Um, but nobody is thinking in terms of the great golf at this point.

[00:26:37] Everybody's, I'm assuming that the, the, the mindset of the rescue team is that they're

[00:26:42] likely in Huntington.

[00:26:45] Maybe there was a fall, maybe there was an avalanche and that this is probably leading

[00:26:50] into the direction of a recovery at that point.

[00:26:52] Yeah.

[00:26:52] That's, that's where the, it's headed.

[00:26:55] The mindset.

[00:26:55] Yeah.

[00:26:55] And then, um, Sunday night, what, what's the decision as far as, um, what they're going

[00:27:00] to do the next day?

[00:27:01] So Sunday night that before the teams depart, they, they make a decision that, um, they're

[00:27:06] going to put mountain rescue service in the gullies, um, in the morning.

[00:27:11] Um, they basically, I think they didn't send any, really anybody else out on Sunday.

[00:27:18] The whole focus was, um, you know, we'll have some people go into Raymond if we can to

[00:27:23] just check around Raymond.

[00:27:25] They felt they had cleared the line, had the day before, but they were going to, uh, cover

[00:27:29] Odell, um, South gully, Odell left and right, because it's, there's two separate, the ice

[00:27:35] flows separate, um, South gully.

[00:27:39] And then the, um, also of some visual searching of the escape hatch.

[00:27:43] Okay.

[00:27:44] Um, and Jeff and, uh, you were there at the second bivy site for two nights, correct?

[00:27:51] Right.

[00:27:52] Two nights.

[00:27:53] Yeah.

[00:27:53] So on Sunday, they made an effort to, um, get out.

[00:27:59] They, they, that is the day that they headed to Madison hut, uh, because they thought that

[00:28:05] that's the, that's what they knew.

[00:28:06] Well, they actually found the signs.

[00:28:08] Yeah.

[00:28:09] They got to the signs with the mileage.

[00:28:10] They thought that Pinkham was too far away at four miles.

[00:28:14] They knew that they knew of Madison hut and that would being a 2.4 mile, but they had no

[00:28:20] idea what they were getting, what they were getting into, but that's the direction they headed.

[00:28:24] Yeah.

[00:28:24] Yeah.

[00:28:24] And this is where you, you know, the difference between being a world-class, you know, prodigy

[00:28:28] climber.

[00:28:29] And then the local knowledge of hiking comes into play is that, you know, you keep, if they, you know, had more local knowledge, they would know like, okay, my better play is to go down the great golf or even better to go up Madison golf and connect with old Jackson.

[00:28:45] But without, you know, without the map or without that knowledge, it's tough to know.

[00:28:49] How early did the, um, AMC guides go back?

[00:28:52] Well, I had, I, for this, I used, um, the 1979 guide.

[00:28:56] Thanks to Gandalf of the whites.

[00:28:58] Yeah.

[00:28:58] There you go.

[00:28:59] Because my point is like, if you did your research and had your maps, you could have seen perhaps some of the elevation gain.

[00:29:07] Um, yeah.

[00:29:08] And the interesting thing is I'm looking at your maps now and it is a different time because there are trails, um, that aren't there anymore that, that were there in, um, 1982.

[00:29:20] Yeah.

[00:29:20] So.

[00:29:21] Yeah.

[00:29:21] And I think that's the part of the book where people will read and go like, Oh, how could they?

[00:29:25] But yeah.

[00:29:26] It's just, they didn't know.

[00:29:27] They were, they were making decisions based on distance, um, and what they thought they knew for a landmark.

[00:29:34] Yeah.

[00:29:35] Which we talk about this all the time around, like, you know, the contour lines a lot of times matter more than distance when you're talking about, uh, about hiking.

[00:29:43] But that was their Sunday, Sunday afternoon.

[00:29:45] And that's, that's essentially, they burned all their matches on that.

[00:29:48] That was it.

[00:29:48] That could, they, yeah, for sure.

[00:29:50] 1.7 miles in several hours.

[00:29:52] Yes.

[00:29:53] Yeah.

[00:29:53] In deep snow.

[00:29:54] Yep.

[00:29:54] In the state they were in going on three days.

[00:29:57] Yeah.

[00:29:58] I mean the climbing section of Madison Gulf is like brutal in the summer.

[00:30:02] I can only imagine what it was like in the winter.

[00:30:04] Yeah.

[00:30:04] So exposed.

[00:30:06] Yeah.

[00:30:06] But they were able to make their way down.

[00:30:08] The positive part about this is that they're laying tracks in areas that people will eventually arrive.

[00:30:15] Right.

[00:30:16] Which is, which is a good thing.

[00:30:17] So they bivy again Sunday night at the same boulder.

[00:30:22] Um, so Sunday night they bivy at that, that, at a new boulder, uh, and they'll, they'll bivy their Monday night as well.

[00:30:29] But I think where we had gone was, you know, what's going to happen Monday.

[00:30:33] Yeah.

[00:30:33] Yeah.

[00:30:33] And Monday, so Monday they, they start spreading out the search a little bit wider.

[00:30:37] Yeah.

[00:30:37] Monday's focus really is on the gullies, technical climbs.

[00:30:40] Yeah.

[00:30:41] Yeah.

[00:30:41] Yeah.

[00:30:41] So, um, so the teams all meet.

[00:30:44] And at that point, like it's very easy for the rescuers to say like, yeah, you know, this is a recovery and I'm not going, but that's not really how, um, the mountain rescue service teams members worked.

[00:30:54] And Albert in particular was, he was committed.

[00:30:57] He was going again.

[00:30:58] Yeah.

[00:30:59] And I think they, um, you know, they weren't really, there were some that were thinking the worst had happened.

[00:31:05] They knew there were instances where, you know, climbers had ended up in Raymond in the woods, not far from Harvard cabin.

[00:31:12] Um, could they have dug a snow cave?

[00:31:15] Were they bivwacking?

[00:31:16] They just, they didn't know.

[00:31:17] So, so they were just, and again, these are young guys and, um, there was just a really strong desire to obviously find them.

[00:31:26] Um, so yep, they sent, they sent teams into the ravine that Monday morning.

[00:31:31] Yeah.

[00:31:32] And then, um, so Albert was paired up with Michael Hartrick.

[00:31:35] Michael.

[00:31:36] And you took, you got a chance to talk.

[00:31:37] I did.

[00:31:38] Yep.

[00:31:38] Yeah.

[00:31:38] I did.

[00:31:39] Um, how was his, was, was it tough to get him to talk or was he pretty open?

[00:31:43] Um, so, um, the one thing I want to mention is, and again, Saturday night, the wind shifts, Eastern aspects are loading with snow Sunday, strong westerly winds, more snowfall loading, loading, loading Sunday night loading overnight.

[00:32:00] So, you know, there was, there was concern about avalanche hazard for sure.

[00:32:04] But Michael, back to Michael, um, it, I was able to get, um, in contact with Michael through a member of mountain rescue service who had known him.

[00:32:16] Um, it's a member of MRS that I had, I have gotten to known through all of these projects.

[00:32:22] And Michael was, um, he, it, I couldn't have asked for more from him.

[00:32:29] We, we sat down, uh, on two occasions and he, he was just really forthcoming and open.

[00:32:38] And he said, you know, and he, he told me, he says, you know, no one's ever really talked to me about this before.

[00:32:43] You know, it just, it happened.

[00:32:45] And back then, you know, things happen.

[00:32:48] What do you do?

[00:32:48] You, you go inward.

[00:32:50] And, um, he hadn't really had these kinds of conversations.

[00:32:54] So, yeah.

[00:32:54] When, when he looked back at that time, so they, they were sent in to climb.

[00:32:58] What, what section of Huntington?

[00:33:00] So Michael and Albert had Odell right.

[00:33:03] Okay.

[00:33:03] And then Steve Larson and Doug Madera had Odell left.

[00:33:07] Joe Lentini and Tiger Burns had South Gully.

[00:33:10] Can they, when they're climbing up in that environment, like, I feel like the weather cleared a little bit, but can they actually, can, are you close enough where you can just see each other going up?

[00:33:18] Uh, they could see each other for a while and then it does separate.

[00:33:20] It does separate.

[00:33:21] And so they, they did lose some visual contact with each other.

[00:33:23] Who was going up Lionhead?

[00:33:26] Uh, nobody is going up.

[00:33:27] Hasty?

[00:33:28] No team going up Lionhead?

[00:33:29] No one's that, because they had gone up on, um, Sunday.

[00:33:33] Okay.

[00:33:33] So.

[00:33:34] Cleared it.

[00:33:34] Essentially.

[00:33:35] They sent, they felt they cleared it.

[00:33:37] Yep.

[00:33:38] They cleared it.

[00:33:38] So basically they sent three teams, two climbers each to go up to those, those climbing routes

[00:33:44] that they hadn't fully cleared.

[00:33:45] Right.

[00:33:46] So, um, and no sign of the climbers.

[00:33:48] So they, they made their way up.

[00:33:50] Was Albert leading or was Michael leading?

[00:33:52] Um, I believe Mike, Michael was leading and you know, the why, okay.

[00:33:56] Why are they checking, uh, South Gully?

[00:33:58] Well, if you top out on Odell's and you go left, you might descend South Gully instead of escape hatch in bad weather.

[00:34:04] So, you know, they wanted to clear all of the, kind of the chutes, the gullies, uh, to the left of Odell.

[00:34:11] So, and then as they're doing this, um, there's activity at Pinkham Notch.

[00:34:15] So obviously everybody's aware that there's an active search going on.

[00:34:20] It's carried on for two, three days now.

[00:34:22] So what's, uh, what are some of the people that are working at Pinkham doing at this time?

[00:34:26] So I think what you're seeing is just, um, the forest service and the AMC working together on search management.

[00:34:33] You know, the media is starting to pick up on this a little bit.

[00:34:36] Um, and, but also, you know, life is going on at the lodge there, you know, there's still winter recreators that are, are around.

[00:34:45] The weather's pretty bad.

[00:34:46] So it's a little bit quieter, but there's definitely people that have come in for the weekend because the weekends were obviously the busiest time for Pinkham.

[00:34:55] Yeah.

[00:34:55] Yeah.

[00:34:56] Um, and then, so as the climb's going on at Huntington, they're clearing it.

[00:35:01] They top out, um, did the teams wait to connect with each other or are they,

[00:35:05] they're just working independently.

[00:35:07] So let's start at South Gully.

[00:35:09] Um, Joe Lentini and Tiger Burns started, they started to get up into South wind slab.

[00:35:16] Um, Joe who had been in an avalanche before at it, when he was 19 years old, he just, he was not comfortable.

[00:35:24] They were digging some test pits here and there.

[00:35:27] Um, just a big slab hanging there.

[00:35:29] And he's like, we're, we're just not doing this.

[00:35:31] And they backed off and went back down to the floor of the ravine to reconvene at the thiokol because there were also some teams,

[00:35:39] um, in snow caves in the ravine, just on standby in case they found Hugh or Jeff, uh,

[00:35:47] or members of the team got in trouble that were climbing.

[00:35:50] Uh, they just wanted to have that contingency plan.

[00:35:52] And then Doug Madera and Steve, uh, Larson, who had done Odell left, uh, they had essentially topped out on Odell left and they wrapped, uh, they wrapped down.

[00:36:03] Um, Albert and Michael, um, topped out on the ice bulge on Odell right.

[00:36:10] And then, and then it just becomes pretty, a pretty steep snow climb.

[00:36:13] Um, and I think, you know, this is, this is where I think Michael's story is just, it's, it's heavy.

[00:36:23] It's powerful.

[00:36:25] Michael did not like to repel, especially off of ice or snow.

[00:36:30] Um, and so they had topped out on the bulge.

[00:36:33] They still had a snow climb above, but they, there was, they were thinking, okay, we'll just, we're going to wrap back down.

[00:36:38] It doesn't look like there's been anyone up here.

[00:36:41] Um, we don't see anybody, uh, but, and there was that, just that significant discomfort with repelling.

[00:36:49] So they mutually decide they're going to continue the snow climb up as they're doing that.

[00:36:55] Um, they start to pick up, um, they see a carabiner, um, in the rock to their left.

[00:37:02] They move over to it.

[00:37:04] Um, there's footprints.

[00:37:05] Um, this is the first sign that, um, somebody has been there at some point and these footprints now track away from the carabiner up toward the top of the gully.

[00:37:18] So obviously this is the first evidence.

[00:37:21] They're going to chase that down.

[00:37:21] They're going to chase it.

[00:37:22] And, um, and that's what they did.

[00:37:25] Yeah.

[00:37:25] So they end up topping out, but obviously they get up there and there's not, there's, at some point they lose the trail.

[00:37:31] It's windblown, right?

[00:37:32] Yeah.

[00:37:32] They, so they get up, uh, they top out, um, and the tracks continue across the garden and they follow them for a period of time.

[00:37:40] Um, they get onto the garden and they lose the tracks.

[00:37:43] So at this point they start to contour, uh, Raymond cataract, which, you know, they're taking a more of a direct line rather than following the trail.

[00:37:53] Um, to not only to check, look down into, um, Raymond, but also to bring them, um, onto the, um, onto the lion head, um, feature.

[00:38:06] Got it.

[00:38:06] And then they make their way over to lion head.

[00:38:09] What's going on with the families?

[00:38:11] Have they been notified yet?

[00:38:13] No.

[00:38:13] So, well, words getting around Mount Washington Valley because you had EMS and IME guides, climbers who are now out on a multi-day search.

[00:38:23] Um, so there's, there's talk in town that there's two climbers missing.

[00:38:27] MRS is up there with AMC and, and, um, uh, and the forest service and fishing game.

[00:38:34] Albert's family had no idea he was out on a, um, on a search.

[00:38:38] His fiancee who he lived with knew, um, but in terms of his sisters or his parents, they, they didn't, they didn't know.

[00:38:45] And again, that's not, not an, that wasn't an uncommon thing.

[00:38:48] Um, that's just, you know, he, he didn't live at home and, um, lived out on his own and not necessarily just going to pick up the phone and call your parents and say, Hey, here's what I'm doing.

[00:38:59] Right.

[00:39:00] When you're 28.

[00:39:01] But what about Jeff and Hugh?

[00:39:03] So Jeff and Hugh's parents, uh, they are alerted on, uh, Sunday.

[00:39:09] Okay.

[00:39:09] So it's Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

[00:39:12] Yeah.

[00:39:12] Three days in.

[00:39:13] Okay.

[00:39:13] So they go missing Saturday.

[00:39:15] Parents get alerted on Sunday.

[00:39:17] Hugh's parents elect, um, they're kind of the, the parents are told, why don't you hold tight?

[00:39:24] We're going to be sending out, um, a team on Monday.

[00:39:27] And if we don't find anything on Monday, maybe, you know, potentially have you come up.

[00:39:32] Uh, well, Jeff and, and Hugh's parents, um, they stayed put.

[00:39:38] Um, and I think, um, Jeff's, Hugh's parents got here Tuesday.

[00:39:46] Jeff's parents got here, I think on Monday or in the early morning hours of, of Tuesday morning.

[00:39:52] Hardcore.

[00:39:53] That's, that's a terrible situation.

[00:39:55] Yeah.

[00:39:56] I can't, I just can't imagine getting that call being hundreds of miles away and having to,

[00:40:02] to try to get here.

[00:40:03] Yeah.

[00:40:04] Yeah.

[00:40:04] And then think through, and then like what's going through your head when you're driving

[00:40:07] all the way up here, like, you know, Oh geez, I'm wasting, you know, it could be like,

[00:40:10] Oh, they're perfectly fine.

[00:40:11] And I'm going to get up there and find out that I drove 300 miles for no reason.

[00:40:16] So, um, yeah, it's, it's tough, but I'm just going back to, so Michael and Albert are up top.

[00:40:23] They make their way, they do find some prints, but eventually they decide they're going

[00:40:28] to go down to lion's head, which is the sort of the fateful decision.

[00:40:31] Right.

[00:40:32] Yeah.

[00:40:33] So they start, um, and again, it's really bad weather, poor visibility.

[00:40:37] They had experienced high winds on the garden, as you might imagine.

[00:40:41] Um, they'd been out all day and they just wanted to get down off the mountain.

[00:40:46] And so they start their descent and, um, they get, um, disoriented.

[00:40:53] Essentially.

[00:40:54] They, they can't find the winter route.

[00:40:56] They had actually come in, um, higher up on, uh, near the top of the summer route, which

[00:41:31] is avalanche prone.

[00:41:33] And they're going to go down to lion head the next, that the day before.

[00:41:35] And he's looking for the trough.

[00:41:37] Well, the trough got covered over.

[00:41:39] So they continued, uh, to move in the direction of what they thought was the winter route, which

[00:41:45] at the time was, um, you know, if you're looking up at the summer route, the room, the winter

[00:41:50] route was to the left.

[00:41:51] It's now positioned to the right.

[00:41:53] So they're just continuing to move to the, you know, in the direction.

[00:41:58] Also knowing that, um, eventually, you know, that, that area is going to narrow because

[00:42:03] you're going to be coming into Tuckerman.

[00:42:05] Uh, they stopped for lunch, uh, just not lunch, but to have something to eat.

[00:42:10] Um, just take a little bit of a break.

[00:42:12] Um, and they, and they continue to move toward, um, hermit shelters because they're, they're

[00:42:18] kind of making a beeline knowing they're eventually going to arrive there.

[00:42:23] And that, that area is typically not like, there's not as much avalanche concern with lion

[00:42:29] head, the winter route typically, right?

[00:42:32] Yeah.

[00:42:33] The, well, there was a big avalanche on lion head in 1969, 5 million pounds of snow slid

[00:42:39] there.

[00:42:40] Um, and, um, the team that was on lion head on Sunday, the AMC team did the lead.

[00:42:48] The leader of that group did experience some snow instability reported it.

[00:42:53] Um, but it was, this was not known as an area where there was avalanche activity.

[00:42:59] The, really the focus was it happened in the ravines, Tuckerman's would happen in Huntington,

[00:43:05] but, um, it just, it, lion head was not really a factor.

[00:43:09] Yeah.

[00:43:10] Yeah.

[00:43:10] So they're making their way down and the, an avalanche was triggered.

[00:43:14] Yep.

[00:43:14] So they, they are crossing, um, you know, they're on a 30 to 35 degree slope.

[00:43:20] Um, there's a kind of a little chute that drops down below a set of, there's a cliff band

[00:43:25] there.

[00:43:26] Um, and they were in the midst of, um, of crossing the snow slope, uh, when this large slab breaks

[00:43:35] off.

[00:43:35] But it was immersed within trees somewhat and vegetation, which is unusual or maybe

[00:43:41] not.

[00:43:41] They had been through heavy vegetation.

[00:43:43] Uh, it opens up a little bit into a clearing where the chute is, but it's in a glade of

[00:43:48] birch trees.

[00:43:49] Um, it's.

[00:43:50] Which you generally think is probably going to be safe.

[00:43:53] I mean, reading this, uh, has totally changed my opinion of avalanche danger and, you know,

[00:43:59] bushwhacking back country.

[00:44:01] You always tend to think you're safe if you're in the trees.

[00:44:04] Yeah.

[00:44:05] Uh, yeah, it's, it's not, they can be an anchor, but they, they've got to be within a certain

[00:44:11] distance of each other.

[00:44:12] And what we know now because of the advancements in snow, snow science is that birch glades

[00:44:17] are a sign of regrowth, meaning that something took down the vegetation there, there previously.

[00:44:24] But we didn't know that back then.

[00:44:26] They may not be dense enough to hold the, hold the snow back.

[00:44:28] Right, right.

[00:44:29] It's incredible.

[00:44:30] Yeah.

[00:44:30] So, yeah, unfortunately, um, you know, the, the avalanche did result in Albert's, um, Albert

[00:44:38] dying and, um, you know, it was a, so the, basically the rescue shifted from a focus on

[00:44:45] Jeff and, and Hugh to, and now they've got their own, own team member that they've got

[00:44:51] to, they've got to find.

[00:44:52] And they didn't know at the time, but they had to activate a rescue for, uh, from Michael

[00:44:57] and Albert.

[00:44:58] Yeah.

[00:44:58] You know, the team, they had wrapped up for the day.

[00:45:01] They were, um, the climbers in Huntington, um, the ones that were kind of standing by

[00:45:07] in snow caves or at the floor were, they were hiking down to Pinkham or had already

[00:45:11] hiked down and arrived there.

[00:45:12] Uh, the thiacol had stopped at Harvard cabin.

[00:45:16] Um, and then they were making their way over, uh, mountain rescue service and, and the two

[00:45:21] four, the two snow rangers operating in the thiacol.

[00:45:24] And they were heading to Lionhead to meet, um, Albert and Michael on their descent.

[00:45:29] And there, there was, there was a light mood in the thiacol for the most part, um, that

[00:45:36] they, they had dodged a bullet, uh, that they, they knew they were on the edge.

[00:45:40] They knew that this was risky and hazardous.

[00:45:43] Um, and the, and that they felt like this, they had kind of gotten past that.

[00:45:48] Uh, their work was essentially over for the search because they had cleared the technical

[00:45:53] terrain.

[00:45:54] Um, and this was either going to become an air search or, um, just getting worded out

[00:45:59] to people going out into the back country.

[00:46:01] If you come across, um, the two missing climbers or look for signs that they've been somewhere,

[00:46:08] you know, it just, it was for them, it was in the wind down stage for sure.

[00:46:11] Yeah.

[00:46:12] And relatively speaking, the Harvard cabin and, um, that particular, it's not far at all

[00:46:17] from, from where they, they were when you look at it on a map, but it can be difficult

[00:46:22] terrain to, to maneuver to.

[00:46:24] So, um, they've now got to basically get the word out that there's been an accident and

[00:46:30] they've got to get a crew of people up there looking for help.

[00:46:34] Yeah, definitely.

[00:46:35] The, the level of urgency when Michael was able to get to his radio because he got caught

[00:46:39] as well, um, and he radioed avalanche, avalanche, avalanche.

[00:46:43] And you can imagine the adrenaline dump in the, um, in the thiokol, the sense of urgency

[00:46:49] to get over there.

[00:46:50] Um, there were people at Pinkham that heard the radio call that grabbed shovels and anything

[00:46:56] that could get their hands on and started running up, uh, Tuckerman ravine trail.

[00:47:00] Um, and they, you know, two people had arrived there pretty quickly after afterward and, um,

[00:47:06] um, were able to get one was able to find Michael Joe Gill, uh, who was the Tuckerman's caretaker,

[00:47:13] um, and was able to just provide enough reassurance to let him know, Hey, helps on the way.

[00:47:18] I've got to go look for Albert because Albert wasn't visible.

[00:47:21] Um, and then over the course of an hour, um, roughly, uh, they had, they had dug Michael

[00:47:29] out, walked him down to, um, the caretaker cabin to take care of him.

[00:47:34] And then, um, within that hour, they had, they had located Albert, um, who had, who had

[00:47:39] essentially, he was killed instantly, um, in the avalanche.

[00:47:44] Yeah.

[00:47:44] Which is, um, and this is the first and only time that rescuers were killed.

[00:47:49] Yep.

[00:47:49] Yeah.

[00:47:50] So, um, obviously this changes from, um, the rescue teams are all very concerned about

[00:47:56] you and Jeff, but at this point, like the, the situation completely changes.

[00:48:01] I mean, the trauma.

[00:48:02] Yeah.

[00:48:02] Um, in, in that moment for them, uh, and to, and to have to, you know, obviously recover

[00:48:10] him, bring him down the mountain, um, get him into an ambulance, uh, where he's taken

[00:48:18] to the hospital and, and pronounced dead, um, trying to get word to his loved ones, to his

[00:48:24] family.

[00:48:24] Uh, word is starting to spread that, uh, something's gone wrong.

[00:48:29] No one really down in the Valley knows who that is.

[00:48:32] And it's just this really brutal, traumatic, uh, period.

[00:48:38] Yeah.

[00:48:39] And the, again, like the, the information moves so much slower than it does today.

[00:48:43] So it's just, that's the one thing that stands out when you read the book is logistically

[00:48:47] getting the message out.

[00:48:48] I mean, his family didn't even know that he was out there on the search.

[00:48:51] Um, and then, you know, you've still got behind the scenes, you've got people that are dealing

[00:48:57] with like, where are Jeff and Hugh?

[00:48:59] Um, so that, that's still going on.

[00:49:01] Um, but can you, can you talk a little bit about the mindset of where the team is at?

[00:49:07] The search and rescue team members are at, um, in the, the day or two after, after this

[00:49:12] happens?

[00:49:13] Well, I think it's, I mean, it's mixed.

[00:49:15] Um, you know, there's, there's obviously shock, devastation, grief.

[00:49:19] There's some anger, um, which these are all normal emotions with something like this.

[00:49:26] And, uh, but they had, you know, they had decided as a team that they had done all they

[00:49:31] could do.

[00:49:32] They had cleared the technical routes that if, if something emerged on Tuesday, because this

[00:49:37] happened on Monday afternoon, that if something happened, um, obviously to call them and they

[00:49:43] would, they would respond.

[00:49:45] And there were rescuers that were at the site of the avalanche that, you know, they were ready

[00:49:49] to go, uh, the next day if they were needed.

[00:49:52] There was a decision made that they were not needed, um, because it was going to shift

[00:49:57] to an air search, uh, but they would be on standby if needed.

[00:50:01] Uh, and then it was just, uh, you know, a couple of days of, um, of just being together,

[00:50:08] some isolated.

[00:50:10] Uh, but one thing that they did that was really, and there were no critical incidents,

[00:50:14] stress debriefing services.

[00:50:16] That wasn't even a concept.

[00:50:18] It just wasn't.

[00:50:18] And, um, and okay, it's, it's men.

[00:50:22] And what do you do?

[00:50:23] This thing happens.

[00:50:24] You don't show vulnerability.

[00:50:25] Uh, you kind of just turn inward and bury it, but they did something that I thought was

[00:50:31] really, really critical in this process.

[00:50:34] And, um, within a couple of nights, they, they convened the team and they, they got together.

[00:50:42] And what we would call that today is a diffusing, um, that type of activity happens today.

[00:50:47] Um, traumatic event, um, get the team together, kind of, you're trying to get the lid off the

[00:50:54] pot.

[00:50:55] Um, you get, they leave, um, this is what you might experience.

[00:50:59] This, uh, this is what you might expect.

[00:51:02] This is what you should do, not do.

[00:51:05] And then they call them, they have them back a day or two later for, um, a debriefing.

[00:51:10] So there's diffusing debriefing, but the team got together and essentially diffused.

[00:51:14] Um, they got it out on the table.

[00:51:17] Um, there were, there were mixed views on, um, on what had happened and, and why they

[00:51:25] were out there and talk about whether the team should even continue on at all, that it

[00:51:31] wasn't worth the risk.

[00:51:32] And, um, and they made a decision of, uh, a veteran of the team who was a former British,

[00:51:38] um, SAS trooper, um, got up and said, Albert, this is not what Albert would want.

[00:51:45] Albert would want us to keep going.

[00:51:47] To continue.

[00:51:48] And, and that night they made a collective decision that we're going to keep, we're

[00:51:53] going to, not only are we going to keep going, we're, we're going to get better.

[00:51:58] Yeah.

[00:51:58] And I think that just inherently all the, all the team members, I mean, selflessness is,

[00:52:03] is a theme that comes through because just the idea that they're out there in those dangerous

[00:52:07] conditions, that they certainly could be doing many other things with their, with their

[00:52:12] time and effort.

[00:52:12] And Albert, you know, made, made the effort to be there for every day that he could.

[00:52:18] Um, so it's probably without question that he would have taken that perspective, but I

[00:52:23] understand people can be mad and say like, look, you know, we, we shouldn't have, you

[00:52:28] know, we shouldn't have gone up in those conditions or maybe they should have forced them to say

[00:52:33] like, Hey, you've got to rappel down.

[00:52:35] Who knows what the, what the other options are.

[00:52:37] I don't really know enough about climbing to know for sure, but, um, it's gotta be a,

[00:52:41] a, a, a very difficult thing to not second guess what could have, what it could have been,

[00:52:46] um, as far as like the decisions to avoid what happened.

[00:52:50] Right.

[00:52:50] Right.

[00:52:51] And, and they, they really focused on learning from there.

[00:52:55] I think within six months they knew they, they needed to be in a position to help people.

[00:52:59] There were only a couple of folks, um, at the site of the avalanche that had medical training.

[00:53:04] Um, and they, they wanted to expand that.

[00:53:07] They, they bought, um, technology for, um, uh, you know, avalanche transceivers.

[00:53:13] Uh, they got training in how to, um, use avalanche probes because up until that point they had

[00:53:20] not probed for an avalanche victim before.

[00:53:22] And now they're, they had, they were probing for a teammate.

[00:53:26] Um, and they started to bring in outside expertise and develop expertise within the team around

[00:53:32] technical rescue because there was a lot, uh, that they could learn just with the use of

[00:53:38] litters and, um, and rope and high angle rescue.

[00:53:41] Uh, and, and they just continued to get better and better and better.

[00:53:45] And the snow science, um, the knowledge around and expertise around snow science was improving

[00:53:51] at the same time.

[00:53:52] Yeah.

[00:53:52] And there was a law passed, I think as a, specifically as a result of this, which, um, does

[00:53:58] previously, there was no, um, medical coverage for rescue team members.

[00:54:03] And, um, I remember when I interviewed Doug Teschner about his, he was involved in a,

[00:54:08] in a, um, uh, a rescue of a hiker and also a fatality, Kenneth Hawkinson the year later.

[00:54:16] And I think he was, he had said that he was like one of the first people that was actually

[00:54:20] covered under that new law, um, where, where the state would fund any medical expenses.

[00:54:26] Yeah.

[00:54:26] State Senator out of, uh, center sandwich sponsored a bill, uh, to get, um, volunteer search and

[00:54:32] rescue personnel working under the authority of New Hampshire fishing game, uh, workers'

[00:54:38] comp insurance.

[00:54:38] Um, the federal government followed soon after that when they're operating in the Cutler River

[00:54:44] drainage under oversight for the forest service.

[00:54:47] So now today there's workers' comp coverage for volunteers, uh, both at the state or federal

[00:54:54] level, depending on who, what, um, what organization has oversight.

[00:54:59] And there's also a federal and state death benefit as well.

[00:55:02] Okay.

[00:55:03] Yeah.

[00:55:03] So, um, it is good to see that people reacted a little bit.

[00:55:07] And very quickly because in the years leading up to this, there had, there had been talk at

[00:55:12] the state level about providing some type of coverage for them, but it, it just didn't get

[00:55:16] any traction.

[00:55:17] It didn't go anywhere.

[00:55:18] But as with a lot of things, um, you have that watershed moment that almost forces the discussion

[00:55:25] back onto the table and they took, you know, the legislature took a leadership role and, and

[00:55:30] get the coverage in place.

[00:55:31] Yeah.

[00:55:32] Yeah.

[00:55:32] And, you know, obviously tragic and, and, uh, the positive out of this is that people

[00:55:38] did learn some lessons and, you know, I think that the understanding of how to process grief

[00:55:44] and, and, and these challenges within search and rescue teams has gotten a lot better, like

[00:55:49] you said.

[00:55:50] Um, but I had a question about that actually in terms of the changes with the teams, um,

[00:55:55] culturally from then till now, have you noticed the shift in terms of the willingness

[00:56:00] of teams or team leadership to send rescuers into certain situations that may place them

[00:56:05] at risk and, and tragic situations?

[00:56:08] Yeah.

[00:56:08] I want to use a, uh, I want to use an example from the first book, uh, because I talked

[00:56:13] about this Tuesday night at Gibson's because I think all the things I've written about kind

[00:56:19] of link back to 1982 when you think about it.

[00:56:22] But on, on Sunday night of the search, uh, for Kate Matrasova, um, mountain rescue service,

[00:56:30] um, New Hampshire fishing game deploy a hasty team up Appalachia, uh, mountain rescue service

[00:56:37] followed, uh, the beacon coordinate at that point was, uh, showing on the, uh, west face

[00:56:43] of, uh, Madison, uh, which we ultimately know was incorrect, but they thought Kate had been

[00:56:48] moving and had gotten below treeline.

[00:56:51] And, uh, uh, so the mountain rescue service team dropped down into that.

[00:56:56] Um, I don't know what to call it between Appalachia and it's Valleyway.

[00:57:01] Yeah.

[00:57:01] Yeah.

[00:57:02] Valleyway trail.

[00:57:03] King ravine.

[00:57:04] Yeah.

[00:57:04] It wasn't King, but it was on the face of Madison, but they dropped down into, again, you're talking

[00:57:11] waste and chest deep, chest deep snow headed up the slope, got to treeline, um, and didn't

[00:57:18] go above treeline.

[00:57:19] What you saw there was a restraint.

[00:57:21] Um, even though they were about a half a mile from, um, the, the coordinate, you saw

[00:57:28] restraint.

[00:57:28] And I think that restraint goes back to the changes that followed Albert's loss because

[00:57:35] then the culture became, we are not going to do, we're not going to put rescuers lives

[00:57:42] in jeopardy on these, on these missions.

[00:57:46] Now that's not to say there isn't risk on the missions, but there is a mindset with search

[00:57:50] management and team leaders that, you know, we're not, we're not going to, you're not

[00:57:55] going to create another rescue situation.

[00:57:57] Yeah.

[00:57:58] I can attest to that.

[00:57:59] That's definitely a larger part of the mission mindset these days.

[00:58:03] Yep.

[00:58:04] Yeah.

[00:58:04] Um, just to shift back to what's happening.

[00:58:07] So you have this tragic, uh, event, you have, uh, Jeff and Hugh bivy down, uh, Sunday into

[00:58:16] Monday.

[00:58:17] Um, did you get to talk to them about, uh, religious aspects or I know that Jeff was somewhat

[00:58:25] religious.

[00:58:26] Yeah.

[00:58:26] Was that a big part of his, his survival?

[00:58:29] And it was because, because Sunday into Monday, I think that's when you start to see them

[00:58:33] breaking.

[00:58:34] Yes.

[00:58:35] So I think after, um, I, I think the break started and, and Hugh from Saturday afternoon,

[00:58:44] uh, starting Saturday, Hugh did not believe they were going to live as they're making their

[00:58:49] way down into great golf.

[00:58:50] But he's not sharing that with Jeff because Jeff is just, he's full of optimism the whole

[00:58:55] time.

[00:58:56] You know, Hugh's more, um, he's just thoughtful, just keeping these thoughts to himself rationally,

[00:59:04] like really not thinking they were going to survive this.

[00:59:08] I think what the, the beginning of the break started when they had made that effort to get

[00:59:14] to Madison hut and couldn't and ended up back where they started several hours later.

[00:59:19] And that's where you start to see this.

[00:59:22] Um, they're not giving up yet, but it's just becoming the reality of the situation setting

[00:59:27] in.

[00:59:28] My sense with Hugh and Jeff is, um, Jeff deeply religious, uh, but would tell you that at that

[00:59:37] time in 82 climbing, um, trumped faith, Hugh incredibly spiritual, like meditative, um,

[00:59:48] getting into the zone, that flow state that kind, you know, so it was a, they were spiritual,

[00:59:54] but just in, in a little bit, it was just in different ways.

[01:00:01] Yeah.

[01:00:02] So there's, um, uh, we talk about sort of the culture of pink, um, not so, um, Kim is

[01:00:09] the cook at pink, um, not she was an, a night watch, a night watch, did some work.

[01:00:14] They would always do different things.

[01:00:16] Just they, you know, AMC staff would go where the needs were, um, at any given point, but

[01:00:21] you know what you had, you had the two backpackers who had now gotten onto old Jackson.

[01:00:25] Uh, stayed on old Jackson on Monday night.

[01:00:29] Um, and then, no, I'm sorry.

[01:00:33] I'm going to make sure I get this right.

[01:00:34] Yep.

[01:00:35] Monday night, um, near low spalled spot on Tuesday morning.

[01:00:40] Um, Cam Bradshaw just wants to get out of camp and essentially the mountain had been shut

[01:00:46] down.

[01:00:46] People were just told do not go out because we're going to have, um, a Huey helicopter

[01:00:52] up and we just don't want to give false positives with people out recreating.

[01:00:56] So, and she strikes me as like a, just a bad-ass hiker.

[01:00:59] Yeah.

[01:00:59] Like she's just getting out and like her obvious route for her to avoid everything is to go

[01:01:04] up old Jackson, go into the great Gulf.

[01:01:06] And she figures like, I'm not going to see anything.

[01:01:08] And this is a person that wanted to be alone, you know, liked being alone, a solitary person,

[01:01:14] uh, very well acclimated in the mountains, spent a ton of time out there, um, backpacking,

[01:01:21] camping.

[01:01:22] Uh, and so she starts to make her way, wants to get out of camp, uh, makes her way out old

[01:01:27] Jackson.

[01:01:27] She's going to do kind of this loop where she connects with Madison Gulf trail, gets on the

[01:01:32] Osgood cutoff.

[01:01:33] It's going to bring her back around the Osgood cutoff is not there anymore.

[01:01:37] Um, but drop her back onto the auto road, hike the auto road back up to old Jackson and go

[01:01:43] back to work or night shift.

[01:01:44] Essentially, um, crosses the auto road, um, and gets onto Madison Gulf trail encounters

[01:01:51] the two backpackers, Jeff May and Dave Boudreau, who are again, moving just super slow,

[01:01:59] living the best life, sleeping in, uh, just, just, yeah.

[01:02:04] Doing their thing.

[01:02:05] Hasn't just a brief interaction with cam as she goes by.

[01:02:09] And not long after that, cam starts to see these, these footprints, you know, and post

[01:02:15] tolling in the snow.

[01:02:17] Um, another religious reference.

[01:02:19] Yeah.

[01:02:19] Yeah.

[01:02:19] And just prints in this, footprints in the snow, um, and starts to follow them.

[01:02:25] They're erratic.

[01:02:26] And these are the footprints that were made by Jeff Batzer, um, as he tried to make another

[01:02:32] attempt, uh, to get out.

[01:02:35] Um, that's right.

[01:02:36] So they had burned all their matches going up Madison Gulf.

[01:02:39] They were basically, they were, they were camped out in between, um, Madison Gulf and like

[01:02:46] where Osgood, Osgood cutoff is.

[01:02:48] There's a couple of like wooden bridges that were still there and they were aware of those

[01:02:53] bridges, but, and there was, there was trail signs.

[01:02:55] So they were in civilization from that perspective, but they just burned all their matches and

[01:03:00] couldn't go.

[01:03:01] But Jeff had made sort of a half, you know, he had attempted, but didn't make it very far.

[01:03:07] With one boot.

[01:03:08] Yeah.

[01:03:08] Wearing one boot.

[01:03:09] Um, he had tried to get out.

[01:03:12] Um, he, he's like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to go for Glen house.

[01:03:15] Um, and which is a good call.

[01:03:18] Yeah.

[01:03:19] But, uh, just got disoriented.

[01:03:21] They, the winds had picked up in the Gulf by that time.

[01:03:24] And, um, he just essentially got driven back to, um, back to their bivouac site.

[01:03:30] But Cam picks this up.

[01:03:32] He's following the tracks.

[01:03:34] Um, it brings her into, to that trail junction.

[01:03:36] She's looking around.

[01:03:37] She sees the tracks, um, heading up, um, great Gulf trail, but she thinks that, um, okay,

[01:03:46] that she's starting to get a sense is, might this be the missing climbers, but thinks that

[01:03:51] the tracks are heading up great Gulf trail.

[01:03:54] Doesn't realize that they actually drop off the trail, uh, and down the river bank to,

[01:03:59] to this boulder.

[01:04:00] And it's that section is a, it's a bit of a maze because you've got Madison golf that heads

[01:04:04] up to Adams.

[01:04:05] Then you've got the great Gulf that travels along the Peabody river, but, and then you've

[01:04:10] also got the cut over to get up to, um, I think Chandler.

[01:04:15] I gotta look at the map again here, but yeah, it's a bit of a maze in there.

[01:04:18] It is, but she was wearing snowshoes.

[01:04:20] So she wants to notice that this is, these are post holes.

[01:04:23] Yeah.

[01:04:23] And they were, you know, they were going off trail and over blow downs, under blow downs.

[01:04:28] And you just tell that this, she initially thought it was a moose.

[01:04:31] Um, and then she started to think, Hmm, okay, this might be, this might be something, um,

[01:04:37] crosses the bridge over the Peabody starts up Madison golf trail, following the tracks,

[01:04:43] which was the tracks that they laid on Sunday, um, comes back down.

[01:04:48] Uh, she thought she was going to find them deceased at the end of the tracks up on Madison

[01:04:52] golf.

[01:04:53] So that's just what, how she thought this would end, uh, stood on the bridge for a bit.

[01:04:57] And then that's when, uh, contact was made with Jeff and cam, um, verbally.

[01:05:05] Um, and cam went over, um, descended the embankment and there she found Hugh and Jeff.

[01:05:13] Yeah.

[01:05:14] Which must've blown her mind.

[01:05:15] Yeah.

[01:05:16] Really.

[01:05:16] Yeah.

[01:05:16] It did.

[01:05:17] Did you talk to her?

[01:05:18] Uh, through email.

[01:05:20] Through email.

[01:05:20] Yeah.

[01:05:21] Yeah.

[01:05:21] She's still, she's still solitary.

[01:05:23] Yes.

[01:05:24] Yeah.

[01:05:24] And I have nothing but respect and I'm so thankful for, for what I was able to, to, um,

[01:05:31] to get for information from her.

[01:05:33] I mean, her adrenaline must've been going crazy.

[01:05:36] Yeah.

[01:05:36] So what she did after.

[01:05:37] Yeah.

[01:05:38] So she gives them some food, uh, gives them some, a little, some clothing, some fluids.

[01:05:43] And she said, I'm all right, I'm, I'm going to head out for help.

[01:05:46] And she beelines, um, Madison golf trail, uh, toward the auto road.

[01:05:52] And she encounters the backpackers who by this time have broken down camp and they're making

[01:05:57] their way into the golf.

[01:05:58] Uh, and she tells them what she's found.

[01:06:01] Um, they didn't make the connection.

[01:06:05] What, what missing climbers.

[01:06:07] So, um, they start to make their way into the golf.

[01:06:11] Cam comes out onto the auto road, miraculously encounters two people, AMC staffers skiing down

[01:06:18] the auto road.

[01:06:20] Those AMC staffers ski down to Glen house site, um, flagged down a car with, it took some time,

[01:06:27] um, get a ride to pink them alert pink them.

[01:06:31] Cam gets the Glen house site calls pink them.

[01:06:35] Um, uh, the two backpackers arrive at great golf and start, um, treating Jeff and Hugh.

[01:06:41] Yeah.

[01:06:41] And you know, they've, they've got the gear, which is, yeah, they have a lot of gear.

[01:06:45] Yeah.

[01:06:46] Probably save their skin.

[01:06:47] Yes.

[01:06:48] Yeah.

[01:06:48] For sure.

[01:06:49] So hats off to the heavy, heavy hikers.

[01:06:53] Yeah.

[01:06:53] That's right.

[01:06:54] And Cam for sure.

[01:06:55] Yeah.

[01:06:55] Yeah.

[01:06:55] Wow.

[01:07:05] Jeff is ambulatory, um, to a certain extent, Hugh, he was not, he was down, uh, had been

[01:07:12] down, you know, Monday, Tuesday.

[01:07:15] I mean, it just had a really frostbite was really pervasive with him.

[01:07:20] Um, but that's then, uh, you know, and the Huey helicopter had already been, uh, searching

[01:07:25] that day.

[01:07:26] Uh, they were, um, at Pinkham, um, getting ready to head back to Concord to come back, um, the

[01:07:33] following day, potentially when Pinkham is alerted about this.

[01:07:38] And then that, that rescue effort begins.

[01:07:40] Yeah.

[01:07:41] And it gets tricky because this is not an area that's friendly for, for helicopters.

[01:07:45] Not at all.

[01:07:46] So you've got a little bit of windows where, you know, you've got the bridges and you've

[01:07:49] got the river crossings, but those are not areas where you want to play around with

[01:07:53] helicopter lifts.

[01:07:54] Right.

[01:07:55] So, but they did anyway.

[01:07:57] Yeah.

[01:07:57] They, they got this done.

[01:07:59] It was remarkable.

[01:08:00] Well, wasn't Misha with them?

[01:08:02] Misha, Misha.

[01:08:03] Misha, uh, loaded into the, um, the helicopter and which is huge because he was a dust off

[01:08:09] medic.

[01:08:10] He had experience in helicopters and, and, uh, rescue, um, battlefield rescue.

[01:08:15] Uh, but he was lowered down with the crew chief from the Huey and Misha went over, immediately

[01:08:22] started treating Hugh.

[01:08:24] The backpackers helped get Jeff, um, over to this, uh, small knoll, uh, for them to get

[01:08:31] him up on the Huey.

[01:08:33] Um, they had to go back and refuel and, um, they came back and, and they, they were able

[01:08:40] to get Hugh.

[01:08:41] So they took out Jeff by jungle penetrator.

[01:08:45] Jungle penetrator.

[01:08:46] And then Hugh by litter.

[01:08:47] So they couldn't, they had, yeah.

[01:08:49] They couldn't cross the river with Hugh with the litter.

[01:08:51] That is just impossible because the bridge was just completely snow covered, snow clogged.

[01:08:56] Uh, so they had to do it on the riverbed essentially.

[01:09:00] And this is why I always say that this is a Spielberg movie because there's so many hiccups

[01:09:04] like an action adventure movie.

[01:09:06] Um, to read it is incredible that they overcame so many problems.

[01:09:12] Yeah.

[01:09:12] And they, and they just, they keep solving problems.

[01:09:15] They just kept solving problems.

[01:09:16] Yeah.

[01:09:17] Like one after another.

[01:09:18] Yeah.

[01:09:19] It's remarkable.

[01:09:20] So definitely not recommended to try to play around with a litter in that area.

[01:09:24] They had very narrow window.

[01:09:26] Yeah.

[01:09:26] I mean, they were going to have to carry that litter and there were not many of them there.

[01:09:30] He probably wouldn't have survived if they had to carry him.

[01:09:32] They wouldn't have.

[01:09:32] He would not have probably wouldn't have survived to carry out.

[01:09:35] Yeah.

[01:09:35] Although if I guess if they could have gotten him to a thiacol, but it's so hard to know.

[01:09:40] Yeah.

[01:09:40] Yeah.

[01:09:41] Cause it's not that far really, um, to get out to, um, the auto road, but, um, it's still,

[01:09:47] you're talking like a mile, a couple of hours maybe.

[01:09:50] It's going to take a long time.

[01:09:51] Yeah.

[01:09:52] Yeah.

[01:09:52] So, so I can't, I can't say he wouldn't have survived, but it's, it's just.

[01:09:57] It wouldn't have been good.

[01:09:58] Yeah.

[01:09:58] So, so they quickly make their way to, um, to the hospital and they're treated.

[01:10:04] You said 94 degrees was their body temp.

[01:10:05] Yeah.

[01:10:06] Their core temp was 94, which is shocking.

[01:10:08] What's the, do you know what like the lowest survival is?

[01:10:11] Is it like people been to like 90 degrees?

[01:10:13] Um, so I read an article about a woman who was submerged at, and 56 degrees.

[01:10:21] Oh, wow.

[01:10:21] James Osborne was 76 degrees.

[01:10:23] Okay.

[01:10:23] That's true.

[01:10:24] Yeah.

[01:10:24] So, and you know, here's the thing, you know, one of the rescuers, um, in 1982 was on the

[01:10:32] team that, um, that found James and, um, helped save him with the Blackhawk.

[01:10:38] So you just see this amazing progress.

[01:10:41] And that was history making rescue in and of itself.

[01:10:44] You just see this incredible progression over time of search and rescue capability.

[01:10:49] Yeah.

[01:10:50] Yeah.

[01:10:51] Yeah.

[01:10:51] It's, it's insane.

[01:10:53] And then the, um, so after, after Jeff and Hugh are picked up, then you've got the, the,

[01:10:58] the two hikers there, they're still there.

[01:11:01] They're, they're adrenaline to the roof.

[01:11:03] So everybody's heading back to Pinkham notch.

[01:11:04] I'm assuming.

[01:11:05] They hike out.

[01:11:06] They hike out.

[01:11:06] They couldn't get Misha on the, the helicopter because of a fuel issue.

[01:11:10] Yeah.

[01:11:10] That's when they went back and they went back to Pinkham to refuel before they went to Littleton.

[01:11:15] Um, but they hiked out and then they took the thiacol down, uh, got back to Pinkham.

[01:11:20] Yeah.

[01:11:21] And Littleton is considered, is it still considered the go-to for hypothermic?

[01:11:26] Yeah.

[01:11:26] I think other hospitals.

[01:11:28] Regional hospital.

[01:11:29] Right.

[01:11:29] Right.

[01:11:29] It was renowned.

[01:11:30] And, uh, Dr. Harry McDade, Campbell McLaren.

[01:11:33] Right.

[01:11:34] Um, Campbell McLaren treated Hugh Herr.

[01:11:38] Um, I met him once.

[01:11:39] And Campbell McLaren treated James Osborne.

[01:11:42] I mean, these are the, you know, these are the, in 2008, it's just, yeah, these are the

[01:11:47] crazy connections in this story.

[01:11:51] A moment of silence.

[01:11:52] Yeah.

[01:11:53] Yeah.

[01:11:53] It's really amazing.

[01:11:55] Yeah.

[01:11:55] So you've got, and it obviously it's the highest of highs and the lowest of lows, um, over the

[01:12:00] course of, you know, four days, five days.

[01:12:03] Um, and then the aftermath of this obviously is that, you know, there, um, a lot of sadness

[01:12:08] over Albert, the family's got to process, the family's got to manage through the funeral

[01:12:13] and then the memorials and everything.

[01:12:15] Um, when, when you hike into Huntington Ravine, you will, um, you'll come upon a, so you, if

[01:12:27] you avoid Harvard cabin, you'll come upon a little, um, a little cache area and there's

[01:12:32] a memorial there for Albert that, um, that they, that they put there.

[01:12:36] So you, I think a lot of people become aware of it if they've hiked into, into that area.

[01:12:42] Yeah.

[01:12:42] Yeah.

[01:12:42] And that cache, um, just ironically had been moved to where it is today.

[01:12:47] It was higher up in the ravine, but it was, um, the Dow cache was destroyed by a, an avalanche

[01:12:54] and had to be relocated.

[01:12:55] So, yeah.

[01:12:56] So what are the odds?

[01:12:57] That's strange.

[01:12:57] I know.

[01:12:57] Right.

[01:12:58] Yeah.

[01:12:58] Wow.

[01:12:58] Yeah.

[01:12:59] So there is a memorial there, um, that anybody basically going up in the, um, into that

[01:13:04] area will see it.

[01:13:05] Um, I think you'd miss it if you come in from the Harvard cabin, but, uh, I mean, everybody

[01:13:10] kind of just makes their way down into the bottom of that for being there.

[01:13:14] So, you know, so the redemption arc, what have these two young climbers done with their

[01:13:20] lives since?

[01:13:21] So they, they suffered, um, amputations due to severe, severe frostbite.

[01:13:28] Again, they're, you know, the young fit bodies, um, were able to, to hold off the cold

[01:13:35] from a hypothermia perspective, but not frostbite.

[01:13:38] Um, Jeff would go on to, um, he would there, I'll leave it for people reading the book,

[01:13:46] but you know, he had a religious moment in the helicopter heading to Littleton hospital.

[01:13:50] Um, I guess we could, we could talk about it for a minute if you want, but, um,

[01:13:56] We gotta leave something for him.

[01:13:57] Yeah.

[01:13:57] Right.

[01:13:58] Uh, but you, so you people better still buy this book.

[01:14:01] Yeah.

[01:14:01] He did, he, he devoted himself, uh, to his faith and he went, um, he became a pastor.

[01:14:09] He, he went on multiple, uh, missions, um, and, uh, doing missionary work.

[01:14:16] And Albert, um, Hugh came back into, um, Mount Washington Valley.

[01:14:22] He, he wanted to come back to the Valley and confront that, um, that part of his life and,

[01:14:28] and resumed climbing, started climbing with, with the Mount Washington climbing community.

[01:14:34] Some of whom were people that were out looking for him.

[01:14:36] Um, and then went on to university.

[01:14:39] Uh, and today he is, um, he's the director of the media lab at, at MIT.

[01:14:45] And he is, he is world renowned for the work that he is doing with prosthetics.

[01:14:51] It's an amazing, amazing story.

[01:14:54] Incredible.

[01:14:55] What he's doing.

[01:14:55] Yeah.

[01:14:57] Wow.

[01:14:58] Twists, huh?

[01:14:59] Quite a story.

[01:15:00] The things that happen in your life.

[01:15:01] So, well, let me ask you this.

[01:15:02] I do.

[01:15:03] Yeah.

[01:15:03] As you were pulling on all these threads, have you, is there any other threads that you've

[01:15:07] pulled on where you're like, that might be my next project?

[01:15:10] Um, there are, there are definitely some things that I, um, learned in the research process

[01:15:20] that I'm compelled by and, and we'll, we'll explore.

[01:15:25] For sure.

[01:15:26] So you're not done writing?

[01:15:27] No.

[01:15:28] No.

[01:15:28] Okay.

[01:15:28] No.

[01:15:29] You're going to take a break or are you always jotting?

[01:15:31] Well, no, I think, um, right now it's the response to the book and, um, right now I'm

[01:15:38] focused on supporting independent bookstores and just, and being present at the ones that

[01:15:44] want me to be there to do some signings.

[01:15:46] And then after the first of the year, I'll start to schedule and have started scheduling

[01:15:50] talks, you know, book talks.

[01:15:52] Yeah.

[01:15:53] Um, but I think, um, I, I don't, I don't want to let the writing, uh, I don't want a

[01:16:00] long lag between.

[01:16:02] It's a muscle, isn't it?

[01:16:03] It is.

[01:16:04] It is.

[01:16:04] And I, I think I learned that in between, um, where you'll find me in last traverse and

[01:16:10] last traverse in this one.

[01:16:11] Yeah.

[01:16:12] Too much of a break.

[01:16:13] Yeah.

[01:16:13] I think just too much lag, just, I don't want to lose that.

[01:16:17] But this must be tiring and draining to you emotionally.

[01:16:22] You're living this story for two, three years plus these books for eight years.

[01:16:27] I mean, it has to be some toll on you.

[01:16:30] Yeah.

[01:16:30] Uh, so I think the first two books I was able to keep, I was able to keep at arm's length

[01:16:39] in a way.

[01:16:39] Um, I, I, I always went into these saying when I would sit with families, you know, what

[01:16:45] they are going through is, I mean, I'm going to be okay.

[01:16:50] Like, uh, okay.

[01:16:51] I'm, I, I might be tired or burnt out or whatever it might be, but I'm not going to

[01:16:56] make this about me.

[01:16:57] And they went through a really, really difficult thing with, I, with this book in particular,

[01:17:04] you know, I have gotten to know a lot of these folks in, in the search and rescue community

[01:17:10] over the past eight, eight years or so.

[01:17:13] And when you're talking with them about the loss of a teammate, a line of duty death, um,

[01:17:20] Albert sisters.

[01:17:24] Um, and I was dealing with my own personal issues during that, where, um, in the midst

[01:17:31] of writing, you know, my dad's health declined and over a nine month period declined to the

[01:17:37] point where, you know, he passed away last October.

[01:17:39] I think I shared this at the, I got to meet your dad once.

[01:17:42] Yeah.

[01:17:42] Yeah.

[01:17:43] And, um, nice guy that it was really hard to write, um, about grief and losses.

[01:17:53] I'm going through grief and loss.

[01:17:55] Um, translates into your writing.

[01:17:59] It has to bleed into your writing.

[01:18:00] It totally does.

[01:18:02] And, and there were some really emotional conversations with family members, with teammates.

[01:18:09] So there was that.

[01:18:10] And then my father's illness, um, and loss.

[01:18:14] And then at that point I was, I was coming into the writing of what happened Monday.

[01:18:21] So I will just say that this definitely, um, took it, it took a toll for sure.

[01:18:30] Yep.

[01:18:31] Well, the final product is, I mean, the final book is, is amazing and it's definitely a book

[01:18:36] where you're not going to put it down, uh, when you start reading it.

[01:18:40] So, um, I just, I find that this timeframe in the early eighties, um, pretty fascinating.

[01:18:46] And honestly, there was a lot of fatalities going on in that area, unfortunately.

[01:18:50] Um, but I think it was a time where people were learning.

[01:18:53] Um, and I think back to like the, that metric that I showed on, um, at Reckless, where you

[01:18:59] look at the age, the average age of the fatalities, how it's, it's gone up.

[01:19:03] It used to be a young, young men would get in trouble, but I think the equipment and the

[01:19:06] knowledge and, um, the access to information has limited those, uh, those, those issues.

[01:19:13] And the gears have gotten a lot better.

[01:19:14] And, you know, I think, you know, I use the word toll, but I'm, I'm really grateful for,

[01:19:19] I'm really grateful for this whole experience and the honor of being able to write this story

[01:19:26] this way.

[01:19:27] Um, yes, I made sacrifices, but, um, nowhere near the sacrifice that, that Albert and his

[01:19:34] family and, and his teammates, Michael Hartrick made, you know, so it's, it was really, really

[01:19:41] hard, but it was, it was all for, for good.

[01:19:45] Yeah.

[01:19:46] Is there anybody else that we didn't talk about that stood out to you?

[01:19:50] I mean, I think they, they all had, they all had their stories.

[01:19:54] I mean, I don't know if you remember Jeff Tyree who had the avalanche and King ravine and

[01:20:00] in 19, I think it was 1980 and Albert was on that rescue.

[01:20:04] Um, you know, Jeff, I talked to him over the phone, but he drove from the North, um, the

[01:20:10] other night and he, and he came to the Gibsons event and I was able to meet him and he was able

[01:20:15] to connect with Albert's sister.

[01:20:17] Um, there's just, there's so many side stories in there.

[01:20:22] Um, you know, David Shoemaker who parished in Odell in 79 talking to his, his mother,

[01:20:30] um, who's in her nineties and all of it is all of it's special.

[01:20:35] Yeah.

[01:20:36] Um, all of it, I can come up every interaction.

[01:20:40] There's some, there's this, there's a gift within all of them.

[01:20:44] Yeah.

[01:20:44] Well, it's an amazing book.

[01:20:45] So for listeners, if you are interested, so you can, they can actually purchase a signed

[01:20:49] copy through full conditions, NH.com, right?

[01:20:52] Yeah, they can.

[01:20:53] They'll, you know, there'll be some signed copies at, um, other, at independent.

[01:20:57] I would, you know, you can buy one through me, but I'm all, you know, independent bookstores

[01:21:02] are just so supportive of authors, particularly local authors.

[01:21:06] So, um, and I'll be doing some signings here and there.

[01:21:09] If you go on my Instagram feed, I've been posting where I'm going to be.

[01:21:13] So, okay.

[01:21:14] Yep.

[01:21:14] Yeah.

[01:21:14] And we'll get the link to, um, where people can purchase it.

[01:21:17] And, uh, if there's a list of like independent bookstores, we can certainly add that to our

[01:21:21] show notes too.

[01:21:22] Great.

[01:21:22] Yeah.

[01:21:23] I keep on looking at the New York times bestseller list to see where you are.

[01:21:26] I don't think it's not going to happen.

[01:21:27] It's not going to, you know, it's, it, it's not going to happen.

[01:21:31] It's our little corner of New Hampshire stop.

[01:21:33] Yeah.

[01:21:34] Calm down.

[01:21:34] And I, um, but here's what I, but I, I know the bookstores are, I know they're, it's doing

[01:21:41] very well in the local bookstores and I'm really, that, that makes, that's what brings

[01:21:49] me joy is there, how they're doing and, and how the, how that story is moving out of the

[01:21:56] stores and into people's hands and, and, um, and the story is becoming kind of fully known.

[01:22:01] Who are the people showing up for your talks?

[01:22:03] It's, it's all, it's, it's.

[01:22:06] Cause it seems like it's, it's so big now.

[01:22:09] It's like 300 people, many turned away.

[01:22:11] Yeah.

[01:22:12] Who, who are they?

[01:22:13] Are they New England?

[01:22:15] Yeah.

[01:22:15] There was a really diverse group the, the other night.

[01:22:19] Um, there were, there were kids, there were older folks there.

[01:22:22] There were non-hikers, non-climbers.

[01:22:25] There were some SAR members there.

[01:22:27] Um, it, it just ran the, it ran the gamut and it was healthy though.

[01:22:32] That's great.

[01:22:33] Yeah.

[01:22:33] Because I think, yes, it's a mountain, mountain based story, but it transcends the mountains

[01:22:39] because a lot of this stuff happens, um, everywhere.

[01:22:44] And the lessons move into your day-to-day life, I think for sure.

[01:22:49] A hundred percent.

[01:22:51] This is great.

[01:22:51] Well, we love you.

[01:22:52] Thank you.

[01:22:52] I love you too.

[01:22:53] I love this friendship and, uh, everything that's going on.

[01:22:56] And I feel like we're helping the search and rescue community.

[01:22:59] I really do.

[01:23:00] I don't, you guys think?

[01:23:01] I hope so.

[01:23:02] There's an appetite for this content.

[01:23:04] Um, whether it's, yeah.

[01:23:19] It's awareness.

[01:23:20] There, but I think that like this, uh, this book is, is a great, um, a great read.

[01:23:26] And like I said, I couldn't put it down after I started reading it.

[01:23:29] And I, I think that the story is just fascinating and it's, there's so many different angles to

[01:23:34] this one.

[01:23:35] Um, you know, even just thinking about the, the challenges and the risk that the helicopter

[01:23:39] pilots dealt with the aftermath of the, the, you know, the medical advances around,

[01:23:44] um, cold weather injuries.

[01:23:46] Um, those are sort of secondary to the story, but they're still interesting on their own.

[01:23:51] So, um, I, I really loved it.

[01:23:53] And I think that it's an important story for people to learn.

[01:23:56] And I think that, um, the history in the white mountains is to me is always fascinating.

[01:24:00] Yeah.

[01:24:01] And I, I want to thank both of you for, I mean, this has been a awesome evolving friendship

[01:24:06] over time and, um, yeah.

[01:24:09] And, and now we're doing full conditions annually at Reckless and it's awesome.

[01:24:13] And you were early readers and, and you wrote a blurb and I,

[01:24:16] I just, I really appreciate the time you put in not only with, with this work, but just

[01:24:21] in general and collecting data and sharing stories and getting information out there.

[01:24:25] I think it all, it all helps.

[01:24:28] Yep.

[01:24:28] Yeah.

[01:24:29] And hopefully, uh, people can stay safe, but I do think that hiking is going to continue

[01:24:33] to be popular.

[01:24:34] So, um, however, whatever channel it is that you can get the message out for people to just

[01:24:38] start thinking about this stuff.

[01:24:40] Um, you know, we talked about it with, uh, the last traverse, like sort of developing

[01:24:45] that little, um, message in your mind to say like, okay, well, I'm, I may be in over

[01:24:51] my head.

[01:24:51] Let me turn around.

[01:24:52] Yeah.

[01:24:53] Um, that's still, that's the goal is to get that muscle built in everybody's head.

[01:24:57] And it's, it's, it's not easy to do, but I think that the more we talk about it, maybe

[01:25:02] the more, you know, even if one person gets it, it can save a life.

[01:25:06] Yeah.

[01:25:06] And what I've been getting a lot lately, um, is that, Hey, I've changed the way I'm, I'm

[01:25:12] changing the way I go out and the way I, I didn't pack before I'm, I really packed to

[01:25:17] prepare now.

[01:25:18] And I'm like, don't give me the credit.

[01:25:20] You're you, I presented the content, you read the content and you made it a conscious decision

[01:25:26] to, to modify so that pat yourself on the shoulder, you know, it's, but I think if we're,

[01:25:32] if folks like us, if we're just continuing to push content out and talking about these

[01:25:37] things, people, people are thirsty for the knowledge and they listen and, um, and it's

[01:25:43] just neat to see what's happening out there with changes.

[01:25:46] Well, we will definitely put links in the show notes on how people can buy the book and

[01:25:50] we'll try to get a list of some of the local bookstores that are selling it.

[01:25:53] My, my, the rumor I hear is that it's tough to get it right now, but, um, I think that,

[01:25:58] you know, the printing presses are, will stay busy.

[01:26:01] Well, thank you so much, Ty.

[01:26:03] And, um, hopefully we won't fall asleep driving home.

[01:26:07] It's been a long night.

[01:26:08] Yeah.

[01:26:09] Uh, well, you know what I have to do?

[01:26:10] I have to release the demon cats.

[01:26:12] Oh yeah.

[01:26:13] He's going to be so glad to be out here.

[01:26:14] So she'll be keeping me up all night.

[01:26:16] Awesome.

[01:26:16] Uh, yeah.

[01:26:17] Thank you, Ty.

[01:26:18] Thank you for having me.

[01:26:19] This is wonderful.

[01:26:20] Happy holidays to you and your listeners.

[01:26:22] Yes, absolutely.

[01:26:31] Thank you for listening.

[01:26:33] If you enjoyed the show, you can subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Podbean, YouTube,

[01:26:40] or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:26:43] If you want to learn more about the topics covered in today's show, please check out the

[01:26:48] show notes and safety information at slasher podcast.com.

[01:26:52] That's S L A S R podcast.com.

[01:26:57] You can also follow the show on Facebook and Instagram.

[01:27:01] We hope you'll join us next week for another great show until then on behalf of Mike and

[01:27:06] stop, get out there and crush some mega peace.

[01:27:12] Now covered in scratches, blisters, and bug bites.

[01:27:16] Chris staff wanted to complete his most challenging day hike ever.

[01:27:20] Fish and game officers say the hiker from Florida activated an emergency beacon yesterday morning.

[01:27:27] He was hiking along the Appalachian trail when the weather started to get worse.

[01:27:31] Officials say the snow was piled up to three feet in some spots and there was a wind chill

[01:27:36] of minus one degree.

[01:27:38] And there's three words to describe this race.

[01:27:41] Do we all know who they are?

[01:27:42] Oh, yeah.

[01:27:45] Lieutenant James Neeland, New Hampshire fishing game.

[01:27:47] Lieutenant, thanks for being with us today.

[01:27:49] Thanks for having me.

[01:27:51] What are some of the most common mistakes you see people make when they're heading out on

[01:27:54] the trails to hike here in New Hampshire?

[01:27:55] Seems to me the most common is being unprepared.

[01:27:57] I think if they just simply visited hikesafe.com and got a list of the 10 essential items and

[01:28:03] had those in their packs, they probably would have no need to ever call us at all.