Episode 238 - Amy Swift - Flume Gorge Manager, Huntington Ravine Rescue, Mt. Isolation, Osceolas, Missing Hiker on Mt. Washington

[00:00:08] Here is the latest Higher Summits forecast brought to you by our friends at the Mt. Washington Observatory. Weather above treeline in the White Mountains is often wildly different than at our trailheads. Before you hike, check the Higher Summits forecast at MtWashington.org.

[00:00:31] Weather observers working at the non-profit Mt. Washington Observatory write this elevation-based forecast every morning and afternoon. Search and Rescue teams, avalanche experts, and backcountry guides all rely on the Higher Summits forecast to anticipate weather conditions above treeline.

[00:00:51] You should too. Go to MtWashington.org or text FORECAST to 603-356-2137. Hello listeners, Nick here with your forecast for the weekend of July 11th, 2026. Mostly in the clouds under mostly cloudy skies with a chance of morning rain showers.

[00:01:20] Slight chance of afternoon rain showers and thunderstorms. High in the mid 50s. Winds west shifting northwest at 25-40 mph with gusts up to 50 mph. Friday night. In and out of the clouds under partly cloudy skies. Low in mid 40s. Winds northwest at 25-40 mph with gusts up to 50 mph decreasing to 15-30 mph. And Saturday. Mostly in the clear under partly sunny skies. High in the lower 50s. Winds northwest at 15-30 mph.

[00:01:49] So looking pretty nice after Friday morning. Hope you can get out there and crush some peaks. Happy and safe hiking. Enjoy.

[00:01:55] The Woodpecker's studio in the great live, free or die state of New Hampshire.

[00:02:35] Welcome to the Sounds Like A Search And Rescue Podcast. Where we discuss all things related to hiking and search and rescue in the white mountains of New Hampshire and beyond.

[00:03:06] All right, Nick. Welcome to episode 238. How are you? How was your 4th of July? I'm doing well and it was pretty good. It was pretty chill. We kind of hung out on the 4th itself. Get out for a hike on the 3rd. But yeah, that was about it. What about you? Same. I was just chilling out. I couldn't hike. I'm injured. Oh no. I'll talk about that later. So I have like a muscle strain. So it's not no big deal.

[00:03:31] I can still move around and do stuff. But it was a working 4th of July, Nick. I took my pressure washer up and we cleaned Papa's roof. He has a metal roof that hasn't been cleaned in like 25 years. So that was very satisfying. Very dangerous though. But I got the whole metal roof in a 100 degree day. Got that done. And then I was down at my brother and sister-in-law's farm. Avalon Equestrian. Okay. Yeah. I gave them a follow after your video. I gave them a follow.

[00:04:00] So if anybody's on Instagram, it's Avalon Equestrian NH. You can do the Instagram or Facebook or TikTok. I think they're on. So they bought a farm. It's a real fixer-upper though. I think it was an older person that couldn't keep up. So they've got a lot of work to do on the actual farmhouse. But the guts of the indoor training arena and everything is good.

[00:04:22] But like I was, it was a lot of time like clearing fields and pulling like stakes and metal fences and stuff. So I got my farmer fixed, Nick. It was pretty good. Yeah. It was interesting watching your dynamic from like power washing roofs to like talking in a horse stall and stuff. And it seemed like you were out and about. I was out and about. Yeah. The nice thing, it's Brownfield to Wakefield, New Hampshire. So it's only like 40 minutes. Okay. So it's an easy, easy going back and forth. And then, um, yeah, on, and then on Sunday I was just splitting wood most of the day.

[00:04:52] So nice. Very nice. Can't really sit still, Nick. That's why the hiking is good. Mrs. Mike was kind of like, yeah, you can't really sit still. Can you? She's like, you sure you can't go for a hike today? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But, uh, but did you do, you did a parade parade here? I see in the notes. Yeah, we, uh, I was, I was chat GPT because I was being lazy, but I was kind of looking for the nearest sort of good parade location. So the Bristol parade's like huge and that's actually probably only 20, 25 minutes from us. But I figured, especially with the two 50th, it was going to be crazy and I didn't want to have to go early.

[00:05:22] We're looking in coincidentally, like the next closest parade to us is in my hometown of Cumberland, probably like 25, 30 minutes away. And now one of my buddy's sisters, uh, has a house that's right near the parade route in the Attleboro side. Um, so we were planning to park over there initially. Um, they blocked it off right before our house. So we parked near there. Um, but yeah, we ended up going to a parade over there in Cumberland. And one thing that stuck out to me that I don't remember as a kid, like I remember maybe they throw smarties to you like every once in a while, but Rylan got like, or I should say we got like a Halloween level.

[00:05:51] Worth the candy almost with people happy and like Skittles. And like, we also got like little soccer balls from like the Cumberland youth soccer association. We got like, she got ducks. Cause there was like a parade of Jeep people. So we got like nine little squeaky ducks and stuff. But we came back with like all this stuff. I'm like, see these kids with sacks. And I'm like, what's up with that? And I'm like, Oh, now I get it. But I don't remember it being like that as a kid. Granted it's no, I don't remember that either. It was an evolution though. Cause I do feel like that started like from my old, from Caroline down to Megan, my youngest.

[00:06:21] Just like there was an evolution. Definitely. Like I think at minimum you go to the Santa parade and they give you like a candy cane or something like a small one. But then at some point it became like some of the freight flow people would figure out like, okay, I'm going to get a bucket and just throw candy. And the kids would like run around. So yeah, they go crazy now.

[00:06:39] I was cracking up. Someone was giving out freeze pops, which it didn't seem like there was a ton of forethought there since it was like 93 degrees at like 11 o'clock. So we brought them back and refrozen, which was cool. But yeah, me and my buddy Nate were also cracking up. I was in the Cumberland high school band way back and did like marching band and stuff. And it's good to know that CHS is playing the same music that they were playing back in 2007.

[00:07:00] Because they were pretty much still playing back in black and rock lobster and a bunch of other stuff that we played back then. So some things change and some things don't. That's good. That's good though. Good, good music. So anyway, it was a fun experience. I hadn't been to a parade in a while. So it was good. All right. Get your candy at your parade. So, okay. Welcome to episode 238 of the Sounds Like a Search and Rescue podcast. This week we're joined by Amy Swift. So Amy, great guest. She is the manager of the Flume Gorge in Franconia State Park.

[00:07:30] She's going to join us to talk a little bit about the Flume Gorge, which I think everybody should check out, especially if you have young kids or if you have somebody that's not a hiker and you want to get them exposed. It's a great area. So she'll talk about her experiences with the Flume Gorge, talk about her background in the White Mountains, including her time involved in volunteer search and rescue. So she was an early member of PEMI Search and Rescue. So in the founding, she was part of the team. She eventually was a captain, been on a bunch of searches. So we'll talk to her about that.

[00:07:58] But so, and in addition to that, it's a busy time of the year for search and rescue. So we had a helicopter rescue in Huntington Ravine. And then there was a missing hiker on Mount Washington and then a number of other injuries and medical emergencies over the last week or two. So we'll cover all those. All this plus tick bites. We got a missing AT through hiker. Dave Schitts in the Woods sent an update from his AT journey.

[00:08:20] We've got an article from the former head of PEMI Search and Rescue who recently sat down for an interview and shared his most memorable moments as president of PEMI SAR. We've got fishing game budget details. We got a kid that got rabies after a bat is found in his mouth. We've got Asiatic bears in Japan are attacking people. Got hiker fatality in Florida due to an alligator attack.

[00:08:44] Nick buys the Helinox ultralight camping cheer and finally gets with the rest of us on the cheers during the hike. And then he also hiked Mount Nortuck. Nortuck, we're going to say. Nortuck. And then he went back to the Osceolas for round two, but this time even hotter. So I'm Mike. And I'm Nick. Let's get started. Let's get started.

[00:09:20] Okay. So Nick, now's the part of the show where we talk about our friends from the Alzheimer's Association. Alzheimer's Association 48 Peaks. Use your passion for hiking to end Alzheimer's. Join 400 plus hikers as they climb New Hampshire's 4,000 footers or create their own challenge to support the mission of the Alzheimer's Association. Fundraising ends August 31st, so there's still plenty of time to get involved. And all those who raise $125 or more will receive the annual purple performance t-shirt. Let's turn the White Mountains purple to end alls.

[00:09:49] Visit alls.org slash 48 Peaks to learn more. All right, Nick. Why don't we actually, why don't we go right into, this is not Alzheimer's related, but our friend Cindy, who is part of the Alzheimer's Association, had notified us about a family that needs some support. So I know that us hikers are very generous and also very wealthy, Nick. So hopefully we can help support this family. So what's the story here? Yeah. So we wanted to help our friend Cindy out.

[00:10:15] So she had a very good friend, Bree, that recently passed away from a battle with glioblastoma. So she got the shocking 2023 diagnosis, had several surgeries, and unfortunately she did succumb to her illness. Cindy's a great person, so I'm sure her friend Bree was also an amazing person. I've sort of read the accounts on here. But her family's kind of struggling a little bit.

[00:10:40] There is a GoFundMe over here, and we hope that maybe we can get some donations to the McDiwell family as well as sort of going through this really tough time. And our condolences to the family as well. Yeah, we'll put this in the show notes and then link this in our socials if anybody wants to give a handout to the family. That'd be great. Absolutely. All right, Nick. So this one, this story, the first story we're going to cover is a rescue on Huntington Ravine.

[00:11:05] We'll talk about Huntington Ravine a little bit because we also got some traction on some social media posts that we put on the Slasher Instagram and Facebook. So on June 26th, matter of fact, we were hiking. So this was on the day that we went hiking on our friend Jake's 4000 Fertifinish on Mount Isolation. So we were Glen Boulder to Isolation. And as we were coming out Rocky Branch, we saw a Blackhawk head right over our head.

[00:11:32] And we were sort of like, yeah, that's heading towards, I had said Tuckerman, but it was actually Huntington Ravine. So at around 1230, Fish and Game was notified on Saturday, June 26th by New Hampshire State Police about an injured hiker on Huntington Ravine. So the call came in via 911, showed the hiker to be about two-tenths of a mile down from the Alpine Garden Trail Junction. So the incident occurred on the steep slab on the upper reaches of the ravine.

[00:12:00] My understanding is that instead of there's a part where you climb the fan section and the steep section and you got to kind of hook to the right a little bit and then come up. It sounds like what happened with this hiker is that he stayed left and kept going up the steep part to the point where I guess he slipped and fell. So the news report goes on to say the caller reported that a male hiker fell approximately 50 feet resulting in serious injuries.

[00:12:28] Due to the nature of the terrain and injuries sustained, a call was made to the National Guard for helicopter support. Calls went out to Mountain Rescue Service due to the technical nature of the terrain and AFSAR. Ground teams utilized Mount Washington's auto road to drive up to the point where they could hike down into the ravine from above. The National Guard was able to quickly assemble a crew and flew up from Concord and they arrived around 2.55. So that makes sense because we were on the summit of isolation and then we dumped that.

[00:12:54] We probably left around 2 o'clock so we were just getting towards like the last river crossing in isolation when we saw the helicopter come over our head. Gotcha. But they were able to hoist down their paramedic who provided initial treatment of the hiker and got him into a litter. At 3.30 the patient was hoisted in the helicopter and flown to Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center in Lebanon. So the hiker was a 24-year-old from St. Foy, Quebec, Canada. He suffered serious injuries but not considered life-threatening.

[00:13:24] He'd been hiking with three other companions and is very lucky to have survived the fall. So 50 feet, that's a pretty... I mean you get... And then the problem there is 50 feet like it's a lot steeper than 50 feet so he could have kept going I would assume. But yeah, it sounds very... Like not a good spot to do that anywhere. So it's like five stories almost. That's kind of wild. Right. Now the interesting part about this is the last paragraph from the conservation officer's press release. It's a very interesting comment here. So they wrote,

[00:13:52] There have been multiple rescue calls on the Huntington Ravine Trail so far this spring and early summer. Huntington Ravine Trail is not a trail for everyday hikers or people who are not prepared with ropes or in climbing gear or proper footwear. The upper section is a dangerous cliff climb and should not be listed as a hiking trail. Fishing game and search and rescue volunteers have responded to dozens and dozens of stranded or injured hikers over the years. There are warning signs at both ends letting hikers know.

[00:14:19] Now, I think that there was a bit of confusion about this last paragraph here, Nick, because I think what the fishing game officers were talking about is stay on the mark trail. But I think what happened with this guy is that he went to the left, didn't stay on the mark trail. And that's the section that fishing game is saying should not be listed as a hiking trail.

[00:14:44] So I'm wondering whether all trails, maybe it's showing that climb up the wall. Yeah, maybe. As an actual part of the trail. So I think that there was a lot of social media talk about like how it shouldn't be listed as a hiking trail. But the Huntington Ravine Trail, which is blazed, is fine. That's part of the AMC. I think what fishing game was talking about is that this person branched off away from the trail itself. And that what he did should not be considered part of the hiking trail. Yeah.

[00:15:13] I mean, I got to imagine too, there's a lot of different climbers trails branching off in little spots here and there as you get into the ravine too, right? I haven't been in there, but you've been in there several times. Oh yeah, I've been in there. I probably climbed up there like seven or eight times now. So you haven't been in there? No, no, I've never been in Huntington. All right, we got to change that. But so anyway, I had just, as this was going on, I was getting a lot of attention on social media. Nick was posting some stuff like Nick has all of a sudden like started dominating on our social media.

[00:15:42] So I got jealous and I was like, I actually have a point of view video. It's a five minute video on the Slasher YouTube channel that I did from 2021 where I climbed up Huntington Ravine Trail and recorded it. And I did like a commentary as I was talking. Like I can't shut up about anything, Nick. So anyway, I was climbing up to this. So I posted this. I took a three minute video because Instagram doesn't do anything longer than three minutes. And then we ended up getting like, I don't know, 60, 70,000 views, a lot of comments.

[00:16:12] It was some people that were like, well, I don't know. There was just some people that was sort of like, you know, no one should be climbing that or you. I think there was some people that felt like my video was discounting the safety on it. But I mean, I was very clear in the caption. I was very clear in my commentary. Like it's steep as hell. Like that section there is super steep. You know, you need to, I mean, you can watch the video, but like essentially what I tell people is when you're going up that trail, it's marked.

[00:16:41] First of all, it's got very clear blazes. Maybe they faded a little bit since 2021, but for 2021, it was freshly blazed. Okay. And essentially the way that this, the steep part is set up is that it's, it's, it's got a crevice that you can go up. So you can literally stick your foot inside that crevice to get a hold. And I always tell people three anchors, you know, two feet in a hand, two hands and a foot, whatever it is, just do three acre anchors as you're going up there.

[00:17:09] And then it's about, I don't know, 200 and 300 foot climb where you're exposed and it's steep as hell. So if you're not comfortable with it, if you don't have good footwear, if you feel like you can't navigate, then don't do it. If you need to, if you really want to do it and you're unsure, then hire a guide, hire red line, hire Northeast mountaineering, whoever, you know, there's a bunch of quality guides. There's guides that you can go on there that you, that'll take you up there for sure. But yeah, it's risky.

[00:17:35] It's probably a little bit steeper than say North Tri-Pyramid slide. But honestly, if you're an experienced hiker and you're sure about your footing, then I wouldn't discourage people from going there. I mean, pick a good day. Don't go on a rainy day. Make sure you have the weather. If you're going in a group, make sure that you keep separation between each other. Don't go too close to anybody else because if they fall, you're going to fall. But you can check out the video. I'll link it again in the show notes for people to check it out. But I think it gives a pretty good view of what to expect, right, Nick? Yeah.

[00:18:05] I mean, you did a great job too in the video. I wanted to mention literally while you're taking it saying that like, yeah, I can see this is where people get into trouble. And like, if you're not looking for sort of those points, if you're not used to looking for footholds in the rock or whatever to scramble. One thing you did jog my memory on was someone started and it got shut down. But a thread, I don't know if it's on Instagram or Facebook. I'm trying to remember which socials I was looking at on. But someone brought up a thread, which is probably inevitable in the terrifying 25 page.

[00:18:33] And sort of Trish went on there and kind of commented and shut it down. One of the creator of the list, I believe Trish Ellis, I believe is her name. And she created it with her kids. But I'm being like, why is this on the terrifying 25 trail? It kind of caught on like wildfire. And it's interesting reading the opinions. But there's a lot of trails in the whites that are inherently dangerous. I mean, I know it's a slab climb. I haven't done it. So maybe I'll probably be pooping bricks or whatever when I'm up there. But a lot of those trails, the same applies.

[00:19:00] Like if it's wet and you don't have good footwear, like you're going to be in bad shape going on a lot of the trails that are considered quote unquote easy in the white. So you got to look at weather conditions. I was curious. Was it wet at all that day when you guys were hiking up there? Was there any chance that Huntington was wet or it was probably bone dry or hard to say? Yeah, it was a little cloudy, but I don't think there was any. Yeah, no, it was pretty dry actually.

[00:19:22] And one thing I can add just from my experience doing scrambly hikes and doing maybe some sort of off trail stuff is if you end up in a situation where you're going to climb up something that you know you can't back down, you can't get back down unless you know how to down climb, which most of us hikers aren't in the category of being able to down climb stuff like you really got to pay attention to those moments. So I mean, he might end up in this place where he had stopped for like five minutes to be like, hey, like, is there any chance I'm going to lose traction on this? Is there any chance I can get down?

[00:19:52] Um, you got to pause sometimes and really think about that type of stuff, especially when you're by yourself. I don't know if you it sounded like he was with a group, but you got to be really careful. And there's a lot of places not even hunting in the ravine that you can end up in trouble in the whites. A lot of spots in Franconia. Actually, I've been open with the first time I did the watcher. I ended up on a climbing trail and kind of slid down and got got away with one there. And that was pretty stupid on my part. But you got to be you got to be careful when you're out in those untraveled and you get on the ledge and stuff like that.

[00:20:19] You just got to just got to use your use your noggin and always helps to go with people. Like even if I go in there, I would 100% go with you or someone that's been in there a few times first before going. Honestly, like when I talk to tell people at Huntington ravine, like the biggest issue I have with Huntington is the lower boulder field and making my way around the caves and everything. I hit my head on the same rock every single time. I've done it like three times. I hit my head. But yeah, it's it's it's dangerous. But like I look, I've done worse things.

[00:20:46] Obviously, like Nick and I and Stontwick, we have a lot of experience. We've been in a lot of places. So like our confidence level and our our tolerance for risk is probably higher than some other people. So take, you know, everybody's situation is different. But I do think there was some commenters that were sort of like they want to make a blanket statement about like, you know, no one should be climbing it or you make it seem too easy. And it's really everybody has to know their own limits. And if you're not sure, but you really want to do it, then hire a guide.

[00:21:16] Like I always say. Yeah, that was a good that was a good way to round that back. I mean, we got like our buddy Andy who like scrambles up everything and there's stuff that I've seen him do that I'm like I 100% would never think of doing. But again, you get people have different comfort zones of what they're doing. So you got to take that as it comes. Yeah. Anyway, but so moving on here. So next story here, we have like just a reminder here. It's tick season again. So there's some articles. We'll put this in the show notes here about the Alpha Gal.

[00:21:45] We've talked about this the last couple of episodes. So just be careful. Use permethrin. permethrin. I think it sounds like Nick, your area is really like Southeast Mass, Martha's Vineyard in Nintucket, really bad right now for the ticks that have this Alpha Gal issue with being allergic to red meat and dairy allergies. So just be careful on it.

[00:22:10] And then the other thing I'll call out when it comes to bugs or whatnot is that the deer flies are starting to come out. So if you are going to be in a place where you have a lot of deer flies, definitely recommend getting the deer fly tape and putting it on your hat. And believe me, you'll be happy to have it. Yes. Yeah, I've had twice just running over here, stepping off the road. Like once, I've ended up with ticks on my ankle. So we're really bad down here in Southeast Mass. But it doesn't take much sometimes.

[00:22:37] Like you just hop in and purge grass for a second and you get them. Yeah. Yeah. Oddly, I was clearing, like I was on all of my brother's farm. They have like these tall grass fields everywhere and I had to get in there to pull stakes and pull wire out. And I was like so paranoid that I was going to get ticks on me. I didn't have a single tick. But that's in Wakefield, New Hampshire. So I don't know if that's, you know, maybe they're just not as prevalent there.

[00:23:04] But anyway, and then the other thing, Nick, that I have here, and then I want you to give a Dave Schitts in the Woods update, is there is a police search for missing Appalachian Trail hiker in Pennsylvania. This is the time of the year. I see this on social media, Nick, that the parents are messaging the social media groups being like, I haven't heard from my kid for a couple of days. But this one seems a little bit more concerning, honestly.

[00:23:27] So missing hiker on the Appalachian Trail who was last known to be in Pennsylvania but hasn't been heard from in at least two weeks. So Isaiah Fox, 26-year-old, they said he's an American indigenous man. So I guess he's Native American. Five feet, eight inches tall. An Appalachian Trail conservatory official said reports indicate Fox's mother last heard from him on either June 18th or June 23rd.

[00:23:53] Fox reportedly told his mother he had reached a campsite in Pennsylvania and was hiking the AT. But no other information. Police are on the lookout for the guy. So we'll post this on our show notes. And if anybody sees it, where's Dave Schitts? What has he been up to? So in some good news, Dave gave us his update for this week. So he said, quote, my novel is complete. At the time of the podcast episode, I was making my way through Pennsylvania, joined for a few days by Liz Fay. Thankfully, I've since finished Pennsylvania and it's currently my least favorite state.

[00:24:22] Not because of the rocks they take so much pride in. Those were actually kind of fun. But because of the state is just boring. There's no great views and there's no history, really. It's just rocks and snakes and looking at your feet all day to step on one correctly and avoid stepping on the other altogether. New Jersey was next. And I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I really loved it. Great trails, good views, fun rocks, a crazy long boardwalk and plenty of bears. There was ice cream on trail a few times and camping at a drive in movie theater to add to the fun.

[00:24:51] I finished up New Jersey and crossed into New York. In parentheses, I'm surprised there wasn't a tool booth at the border. Dave's always adding humor for us here, even in text. The heat last week was brutal and added to the challenge on the more technical terrain here. Overall, it's been good, but it's New York, so it also sucks at the same time. It's been the most rock scrambling I've done on the trip, which is fun. It has beautiful woods and great views. They also do a shitty job of blazing the trails. There's no hostels or shuttles and everything is expensive. The reroutes suck as well. I'll stop there.

[00:25:20] Maybe it will get better after Nobby gets here Monday. So our friend Mark Nobby is headed out to join him. I did get a ride as well as a slack pack from a slasher listener, Joe Klopkowski. So a huge shout out and thank you to Joe. Are New York listeners better trail angels than New Hampshire? We'll see. I just passed mile 1400 and I'm making progress every day. Thanks again for all the support and help to keep me going. So I enjoyed that brain dump from Dave. It was very passive aggressive towards New York. It was.

[00:25:51] And I do have to give Dave a shout out. So he, when he was on the last episode, he had named our, so we have a little hiking text group. There's probably, I think there's 11 or 12 guys now. It's a mix of like me and Nick. And then there's like friends that we picked up over time. And then I've added a few friends from like my Amesbury crew and my work crew. So, and the names are all like religious names like Peter and Paul and whatever. So Dave had called us the Apostles.

[00:26:19] So we changed the name of our text group to the Apostles. And I think it's kind of stuck, Nick. Yeah. It was a pretty good comment. It was pretty funny because it, there is like half the group that's like, I mean, we have biblical names too, but there is like two Pauls, Peter, you got a Jake, Jacob. So it's kind of, I thought it was very funny and it was just an example of Dave's quick humor, but it's definitely catchy. Yeah. Yeah. And he made a nice little, like, uh, he used AI to take all of our pictures and he made like a last supper photo and Stevie shit. Oh my gosh.

[00:26:48] He used a cookie, a cookie with a bite out of it for his head. So it was so good. It was really great. So good. I'm glad you mentioned that. I forgot about that. Yeah. That was making a, that was making the rounds on the socials this week too. At first I looked at him and I was like, what is that? It was great. Right. Right. All right. So we have a few, we have a few New Hampshire stories that we wanted to dig in here. So, um, Amy Smart, who we're going to have on later, um, she actually, uh, references

[00:27:15] Alan Clark, who is the former president of the, uh, Pemigawasset Valley search and rescue team. So Alan, uh, longtime president, um, I think from the very beginning of the, um, the establishment of Pemisar up until a couple of years ago. Um, but he sat down for an interview in the Caledonian record, um, to give his, uh, the title here is longtime hiker rescuer recounts hardest, most satisfying rescues, and then also

[00:27:45] give some common hiking pitfalls and tips to safety. So, um, it starts off by saying that Alan Clark, um, he's the fire chief of Sugar Hill has been a founding member of the, um, Pemigawasset Valley search and rescue team. In that time, he's participated in more than 400 hiker rescue missions, averaging around 20 or more a year. He's, he goes on to say for searches, they send us any place in the state. We have a good reputation, point us in the right spot. And there's a good chance we're going to find the person.

[00:28:13] And then, uh, they go on to ask him about, uh, his hardest rescue. And, uh, he describes the, and, and I think a lot of our listeners are familiar with this Sunday, November 20th, 2022, just before Thanksgiving and three days before she would have turned 20 years old, Emily Sotelo of Westford, Mass., a Vanderbilt University student, mathematician, volunteer EMT, and avid outdoors woman set out for a solo hike on the summit of Mount Lafayette.

[00:28:42] And, uh, Clark goes on to say that he's been on, uh, many difficult rescues, but the, uh, Sotelo rescue was, uh, particularly hard both physically and emotionally. And, uh, Clark goes on to say that the first night when we put the crews out, the weather conditions were absolutely miserable. At that time, we had some hope we would find her maybe injured as it worked out. That was not the case. It was very tough all around. As listeners know, Sotelo didn't, um, come down as planned.

[00:29:09] There were three rescue crews that were sent out with a goal to clear the main trail and come across Franconia. Conditions were brutal. The team went through hell, Clark said. Temperatures were very, very cold. High winds were blowing ice and knowing they were looking for a 20 year old woman just made it much more miserable because we knew when, uh, that crew came down without her that she had passed away. We just didn't know where. Um, so Clark goes on to say, uh, unfortunately they were much too late due to the weather conditions.

[00:29:37] She went off trail and got into the Lafayette Brook drainage. She was extremely smart, uh, but unfortunately made some bad decisions. The first was when she got out of her mother's car. And from then on it went downhill. So, um, he goes on to describe the, uh, the rest of that search. And unfortunately Sotelo died of hypothermia. Um, they then go on to ask Clark about his worst hiking accident that he experienced. And he talks about the fact that there were many fatalities and he says on average around

[00:30:06] half a dozen fatalities per year. Um, he goes on to describe a, uh, a fatality that happened in Lonesome Lake trail in Franconia that a young boy on his birthday wanted to come to the White Mountains to go for a hike. He wanted his grandfather to come as well. So the family went up Lonesome Lake. They diverted off into something that was much steeper. And the grandfather unfortunately went into cardiac arrest quite a ways up. The, uh, the team was called.

[00:30:32] There was some, um, rescuers that had administered CPR and, um, you know, unfortunately they had to make the decision after a while to stop the CPR. So it was difficult. By the time the team got there, it had been quite a while. It was a hard thing because he was with his family, probably from an emotional standpoint, that was the most difficult because in that particular case, they'd looked at me as if I had killed Grampy because we stopped, but it was clearly the right decision. It wasn't just arbitrary.

[00:31:00] It was based on our protocols and among, um, amount of time that had gone by, but that one was tough. So, and then he goes on to talk about gratifying rescues where, um, they had a 10 year old girl had run off. I guess she was, uh, dealing with some family issues, a recent divorce and, uh, the father was in the new girlfriend and the daughter wasn't having it. So she had gotten off ahead of them. So they ended up, um, realizing that she had run off and was hiding and Clark were actually

[00:31:29] went across the street and was able to see the girl hiding in there. And, um, she eventually came running down, jumped into his arms and knocked him down. And she was pretty happy to see him because she got scared. So kind of cool stories, Nick. Yeah. It's, it's, it's sort of fascinating little insight, um, into sort of what the Pemisar folks deal with and sort of all the search and rescue folks sort of deal with. I think the emotional toll is not something a lot of us, uh, think of a lot of what they go through.

[00:31:58] Like they, they want to find these people when something does go awry, like that's, that's kind of what they're out there to do. And, um, and obviously there's some really great times. Um, did have the pleasure of meeting Alan a bit back, uh, last year, um, helping stomp out with something and, uh, very humble, very humble folks, all those, uh, search and rescue folks. So it's kind of amazing some of the stuff they do and we're super grateful for that. Right. Yeah. And Alan, he cites three main, uh, or a few hiker pitfalls.

[00:32:25] He said, not heating the weather forecast, improper footwear, lack of cold weather clothing, and then a reluctance to turn around when conditions tip into the danger zone. He basically goes on to say like, look, with the touch of a phone, you can see the weather forecast anywhere in the world from that moment to hours or longer. He's like the long-term forecast have gotten, uh, pretty, pretty good over the years. So, um, we, we encourage people to, um, to, to keep an eye on that.

[00:32:52] And then, um, he also talks about like time schedules. He says, well, you know, visitors got this time schedule to do a hike. They don't want to let the weather and common sense get in the middle of it. And they're trying to accomplish what they've wanted to accomplish while ignoring the weather. But his recommendation is to know what the weather is, not the weather in Boston or wherever you are, but the weather in Franconia notch, the weather in the notches unlike anywhere else, some days it's better, some days it's a lot worse.

[00:33:18] Talks about dressing for cold conditions, um, and, um, dressing in layers is paramount. He's deals with a lot of hypothermia issues. And then he says, be prepared for emergencies, headlamp, flashlight, um, make sure that you're, you're ready to go when it comes to that. So a lot of things that we touch on here. Yeah, a hundred percent. And he kind of closes out saying that hiking is extremely enjoyable. Um, it's very relaxing for people and people shouldn't be afraid to hike in the whites, but they definitely need to be prepared.

[00:33:48] They are hiking in the whites. Yeah. Alan, um, has seen more than I think anybody. Uh, yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, thank you for your service. And, uh, yeah, he's, he's a great guy. So, um, good to hear from him. So we'll link this in the show notes so people can read that article. Um, and then next up here, Nick, we had a, uh, missing person. This one ended successfully on Mount Washington. So what happened here? This guy was in the wind for like 16 hours. It sounds like. Yeah.

[00:34:18] It sounds like, uh, he was lucky to lucky to be found, but yeah, it was kind of a bit of an ordeal. So, um, this was on Friday afternoon, uh, July 3rd, a lost hiker who was missing for over a day was located alive and well on Mount Washington. And so approximately 7 PM on Thursday, um, July 2nd, fish and game department conservation officers were advised that a 23 year old international traveler from Brazil was overdue from a hike on Washington.

[00:34:44] Um, he had separated from his hiking partner while ascending Ammo ravine trail and had not been seen or heard from since 2 45 PM. So he'd been gone almost four hours, a little over four hours at that point by nine o'clock at night, the hiker still had not made it out of the woods. So a search was initiated. Um, the CEOs and volunteers from AvSAR ended up working through the night to sweep the trails and attempted to locate it, the missing hiker after the morning on July 3rd, more searches arrived and began going through the woods and streams and off trail areas of Ammo ravine.

[00:35:14] Um, which they had decided at that point was the most likely, uh, area where he ended up. And aside from brutally difficult terrain, searchers endured some of the hottest conditions that will likely be seen on Mount Washington this year. And yeah, that anybody that's been watching the forecast, especially the way the front pushed through, I think really Thursday afternoon into Friday was really the toastiest of the heat up there. It was a little bit more Friday, Saturday, almost, I think as you went into like Southeastern Mass where we are, but it was, it was hot as a heck up there. So drone teens, this is interesting.

[00:35:43] Drone teens assisted with aerial support and staff from the AMC. And Mount Washington state park kept a lookout for the hiker. Should he show up at a remote location? So at 3 27 PM, 16 and a half hours of searching, uh, the conservation officers were notified that the, uh, that the hiker had just arrived at AMC lakes of the clouds hut. So he was found to be tired, hungry, and thirsty, but was otherwise uninjured. Um, the AMC provided him with food and water and rescuers were sent to the hut to assist him out of the woods.

[00:36:10] After rescuing, uh, the lost hiker hiked down with assistance and arrived safely at the ammo ravine trailhead at 8 35 PM. Um, once he arrived back at the road, he was assessed by AMF staff, EMS staff from the twin mountain fire department. Um, he declined transport to a hospital, um, but he was given a courtesy ride to a hotel in Littleton. Um, so both the hiker and his family were very grateful for all the efforts put forth on their behalf. Um, and the article does just call out a massive, uh, collaboration between fish and game,

[00:36:40] the forest service, New Hampshire state police, Mount Washington state park employees, twin mountain fire and rescue volunteer teams from AVSAR. Um, you get the AMC involved in there and the Randolph mountain club all assisted in, uh, locating the hiker. Um, and they also assisted in completing the rescue of another injured hiker on the pine link trail, which was happening at the same time. So that's over on Madison. Um, so that the crews could continue their focus on finding that missing hiker around Washington. So some volunteers sort of stepped up, um, to allow the search to continue.

[00:37:09] And they also wanted to shout out the cog who provided facilities, equipment and transportations for this searchers. So a lot of effort in this one, they got the guy down. Wonder where the heck he ended up for like 12 hours. But I wonder if like the reroad of the ammo trail got like, I don't know, maybe he got confused. Who knows? I haven't been over there. So I don't know how significant that is or where are you, where are you might've gone? Maybe he got abducted by aliens, Nick. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe we have a Betty Barnley Lee situation over here, but that's a long time to be gone.

[00:37:38] I mean, at least he was, he was okay, but that's a long time to disappear in that area and then end up back on trail. Yeah. The guys from Brazil, I mean, obviously I'm assuming he doesn't know the area that well. I don't know what the deal is with his hiking partner that he separated from, but, uh, kind of a weird story, Nick. Yeah. And four hours to me seems like a long, I mean, again, they don't, maybe they don't know the trails well, but four hours seems like a long time to realize that he had veered off the trail and they weren't together anymore. But maybe if you're kind of separated in a group and you're not familiar, it's a little bit easier to do.

[00:38:09] Nick, if, if me and you were hiking and we got separated, how many hours would you give me before you called, um, search and rescue? Ooh, I don't know. I don't know. Being honest, I think maybe that might be hypocritical here. I'd probably give you longer than I should. No, I think I'd go try to find you first. If I would like to think, depending on the weather in the, the trail, I would like to think one of us would go try to find the other one first before just completely waiting for you. Yeah.

[00:38:38] I probably wouldn't call. I would just, I would just go out and I'd call Ashley and be like, I don't know what happened. Yeah. You're like, I don't know. I don't know what happened. He, I'd be like, he wouldn't want me to call. He'd come to, he's coming down eventually. I see a headlamp up there. It's probably him. I would text the apostle text group and just say, can everyone get up here and search for I don't know. I think Ash would probably want to kill me more than anybody else actually. On the contrary. So. Kristen like tell you, yeah. Mrs. Mike just like, she's like, don't get it. Don't ever get in trouble out in the woods. Yeah.

[00:39:08] I know, I know when this winter, when I told her, I told back on, I told her, I turned back on cold and she said that that was good because she'd want to kill me if I came and had to get walked out by a SAR team or something. So I think I'd be more worried about her than being shamed by anybody else. That's true. That's true. Anyway. Well, okay. So now we know Mike will not call and Nick's not sure. So don't, don't ever get lost around us. We'll freeze up. I won't call Mrs. Mike based on that information. No, no, don't, don't do that. So, um, all right. So next article here.

[00:39:37] So fishing game put out an article about their, uh, their funding sources. So, uh, they also linked like a more detailed budget book, which is kind of, it's like 50 pages of detail. So, um, bottom line for fishing game funding is, uh, the budgets are on 49 million and, um, um, they've got their funding sources is like, so 25% of the funding sources is from hunting and fishing license revenue. They get another 25% from federal funds or 24%.

[00:40:05] They get about 18% of their budget from, um, the OH RV. So those side-by-sides or four wheelers registration fees. So when you total that all up, that's about, uh, 70% of their funding. And then they also have a big bucket, which is called ARPA, um, gopher funding, which is temporary money, which is about 8.4 million.

[00:40:32] And, um, that's about 17% of their budget. So I don't know how much longer that, that amount comes in, but they're going to have to basically close that gap if it's temporary funding. Then they get like 5% from other agencies. They get a gas tax transfer. They've got a general fund, um, and they've got miscellaneous revenue, which is like 1.5 million, which I'm assuming that's like partly the hike safeguard. And, um, the, a couple of things that jump out on this.

[00:41:01] So basically common perception is, is that fishing games funded almost entirely by hunters and fishermen. That's not in, not true anymore. About 25% is covered for that. And then, um, vehicle registration and then federal money covers like, so that between the, the fishing and hunting licenses, federal money and the registration for the vehicles, that's about 67%. And then another 17% comes from the federal government. Then they have, um, yeah.

[00:41:31] So these federal grants broken down, wildlife restoration, sports fish restoration. NOAA marine programs, state wildlife grants, and then indirect grant reimbursements. Um, hike safe revenue is pretty small. So fiscal year 2024 was 372,000 in 2025, there was a 12.6% increase. So $419,300 for hike safe cards. So there's a hike safe as a voluntary program.

[00:41:58] And, um, they've seen a 12.6% increase. They attribute that to a larger marketing effort, including placing hike safe posters in all the DMV offices. So I think you can probably get a hike safe card there if you want. Um, there's also a $1 search and rescue surcharge on boat, OHRV and snowmobile registrations. And the hike safe card also has a $1, uh, fee built into it. So total revenue from that is about 630,000.

[00:42:27] Um, and then, yeah, there's some other things here. So I guess the themes here is the hunting license sales are essentially flat. Costs continue to rise. The temporary federal money is ending. And the department says it needs a new long-term funding model to address that eight or $9 million with the, that the federal government is ending.

[00:42:52] The state legislature's funding study recommended looking at hike safe fees, boat access fees, getting more money from the state fund in New Hampshire, which ain't going to happen. Charging other agencies for service, recovering more search and rescue costs, or better leveraging federal matching funds. So, um, but yeah, it's interesting. So it's a pretty big operation there, Nick. It's 40, $49 million budget. Yeah, it's impressive.

[00:43:21] I, while you were chatting too, I was sort of looking at the numbers for resident fishing licenses and it's interesting to see it super peaked like in 2020 and 21, uh, right now. So a lot of people are as, and it's funny cause in mass, I was doing the same thing, but, uh, we certainly, uh, are thankful for what they do. And it seems like they generally have their stuff together. Right. Yeah. And the federal money they do get, which is like 20, 25% of the budget there, like a lot of that's earmarked for specific things.

[00:43:49] So it has to go towards like fish restoration or, um, or wildlife restoration programs. So they have to earmark those funds. So it's not like, I don't think that they can redirect all those funds to different, different areas. Hmm. So anyway, Nick, that is the story with, uh, a deep dive into fishing game budget choices. So I'll put the article and then also the budget book so people can check that out.

[00:44:16] And then moving on to national stuff here, Nick, we've got a boy dies of rabies after a bat was found in his mouth. This happened in Canada. So what a nightmare. Yeah, that sounds awful. So an 11 year old Canadian boy died from rabies after waking up with a bat in his nose and mouth. Um, so this ended up happening, uh, during a visit to a cottage in Northern Ontario in 2024. Um, so woken up by shock, the boy who wasn't named to the report smacked the bat off his face.

[00:44:45] His father then caught it in a cooking pot and released it outside. Um, doctors, uh, from the university of Manitoba had said in the report, uh, so since the child had no visible bite marks and the bat's behavior didn't seem erratic, uh, the boy's parents did not seek medical attention. And, uh, 19 days later, the boy began to experience progressive tingling sensation, numbness on the right side of his face, followed by facial swelling and a loss of appetite. Uh, four days after the symptoms began, a local urgent care clinic prescribed a medication

[00:45:14] used to treat herpes as it was presumed he had symptoms of Bell's palsy caused by the herpes virus. Um, three days later, he was brought to a city hospital in the emergency department in Ontario. Um, by this point he had painful swallowing and vomiting. Um, then it sounds like after that he had ulcers in his gums, mild impairment in a nerve on the right side of his face that provides sensation control. So this is just giving you a little bit insight to what rabies actually does to you, which is awful. Um, and then it, despite it sort of the family told the doctors about the incident with the bat.

[00:45:44] Um, it sounds like the next day the emergency doctor notified the local public health authority. Um, but the hospital actually ended up discharging the child. Um, still thinking at this point he had herpes gingivostomatitis, might have pronounced that incorrectly, um, which just leads to sores in the lips, the mouth caused by, uh, herpes kind of the mouth. Um, this is just a nightmare. Yeah. This is just a nightmare. Crazy. Like, and they hadn't had a case since like 1967.

[00:46:12] So I don't, I'm assuming the hospital didn't exactly like have rabies at the top of the mouth, but I would have, I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I feel like even if, if you end up with a bat, even in your house, like I think a lot of times they advise you to do that just cause they're like, if a bat does bite you, like I think their teeth and everything are so small, like you're, you're probably not likely to hear that as a human. I know I've, I've heard that somewhere before. If I even see a bat, Nick, I'm gonna, I'm getting a rabies test. This is a hundred percent. Um, not to make light of the boys situation, but this is a hundred percent of where if

[00:46:41] like you, you find a bat, like anywhere on your child, like I know what, like a lot of people have old houses and, and sort of new England and stuff where there might be bats in your attic or things like that. Like definitely just, uh, do your due diligence on this one. Um, have you ever had bats in your house, Nick? Uh, no, I have not. So I've had, I say that we had a bat flight in my parents' house once when I was really young. Um, I think maybe just like, like a freak sort of like it was chasing bugs and it came back through the screen door or something weird like that.

[00:47:11] Um, but it flew like right out. Like it wasn't in the house long. Um, so not too many experiences. What, what about you, Mike? Yeah. Yeah. We had them up. And, um, so in my, my house in North Reading, we had one come in. They always fly down the wood stove and then up in Maine at the camp, they had them. They, we would get, we get a towel and then a broom and water. Whack the thing and then full with a towel and open the wood stove. It was a whole thing. Every, all the women is screaming everywhere.

[00:47:39] And then we get rid of the thing and then it would fly right back. Oh my God. Oh my God. So we had to go up on the roof and put, it was crazy. So yeah, I don't like them. They give me the creeps. We used to have squirrels get in our chimney at my parents' house too, which is a giant pain in the butt. Yeah. I had one die in there once. It was, it was not a good situation. I don't like creatures in my house. So if, yeah, if you have a bat and it ends up on your kid's face or in his mouth or whatever, just make sure you get a rabies shot. All right.

[00:48:09] Well, Nick, moving on. We like a good bear mauling story here. So we're going to move on to Japan. Yeah. We got, so moving over into Japan, we got men mauled to death by barren mountains as police investigate the sixth deadly, deadly attack in within weeks in Japan. Um, so just, they, they found a body of a 63 year old victim, um, discovered in the Northern Amori prefecture. So I don't know if that's like the States in Japan.

[00:48:38] I'm not, uh, not up to snuff with my Japan, uh, geography, but, um, more or less that the 60 year old three victim was 63 year old victim was found in the mountains on Monday. Um, so it goes on to mention that the police are still investigating the cause of the man's death, but the local official revealed a bite marks that had been found on his body. Um, so the incident comes amid a sharp rise in bear activity activity across Japan.

[00:49:03] And they mentioned that in the last three months, fatal attacks have jumped five fold compared to last year. Um, so there's been five people killed in Japan by these bears since April and these deaths follow a grim record in 2025 where 13 people were killed across the country. So, and apparently they said that bear sightings have soared with more than 50,000 reported nationwide and experts have yet to put down, um, what's actually causing this spike in the animals population.

[00:49:33] So kind of interesting over there. It seems like a massive, uh, increase in their population or maybe people going to certain areas or they're migrating and getting curious. It's kind of crazy. I think of like the same thing happened there. That'd be pretty alarming in Massachusetts if it started happening here. Yeah, they seem to, yeah, the, uh, they seem to be like, like to go after old people working in factories. It seems to be their pattern there. I don't know what's going on there. Opportunistic eaters there. All right.

[00:49:59] Well, I just, I just put into the, uh, the computer here, the differences between Japanese Asiatic black bears and Northeast U.S. black bears. So the, uh, the Asiatic black bears are smaller, but I feel like Japanese people are smaller, Nick. Yeah. It's probably sort of a, an even playing there. Ratio. Ratio. There we go. So that's what I was saying. So they said that the males wave, uh, between 130 and 250. I feel like I could take 130 pound bear. Yeah. I don't know.

[00:50:29] It's got big, big claws. They have big claws though. I don't know. You think you have it. So what you're saying is you think we need to bring your discussion about attacking black. We got to consider the Asiatic bear species in the, in the ring. Uh, yeah, I don't know. 130 pounds. I feel like I'm not that intimidated, but I feel like a little bit. Any 130 pounds to 250. The Northeast U.S. black bear in our neighborhood, 200 to 500 plus pounds. Yeah. So ours are like can go above 500 pounds.

[00:50:58] Shoulder height is between two and a half to three feet in the, in Japan, three to three and a half feet. And then I guess the color, I guess they have like a, like a white necklace around their, their neck in Japan. And then ours are more brown cinnamon and all usually no chest markings. I said temperament wise, the Japanese beers are more defensive, which makes sense why they're attacking the old Japanese people outside their factories. And then, uh, Northeast black bears are more likely to flee. So.

[00:51:27] I just got a visual. I guess that's. You guys keep talking about, you're going to make me ride a bike at Baxter and I get a visual. Obviously this could never happen, but if we just, you were sitting by the fire and we just brought out a cage and it had an Asiatic bear in it and we're like, okay, Mike, let's go. Let's see. Let's see how you do. I don't think it would end well for me. Um, all right. And then moving on to, um, pleasant story. Yeah. Another story here.

[00:51:55] So a hiker in Florida, um, dies after, um, hiking with her boyfriend after they went for a swim and an alligator ripped both of her arms off. This is like, I mean. This is awful. So yeah. I couldn't even write up a horror story or a movie worse than this. This is like the slasher slasher movie edition. Here we go. So 31 year old woman died after an alligator ripped off both her arms while she was hiking with her boyfriend and best friend in central Florida. So if this story doesn't deter you from ever hiking in Florida, I don't know what will.

[00:52:25] Um, the vicious attack unfolded as the trio took a dip in the shallows of the Econ Loch Hatchie river and little big econ state forest, um, 20 miles northeast of Orlando. So they waited into cool off around 1 30 PM where the alligator pounced on this woman who has yet to be identified. Um, it just an awful night. And they mentioned an awful 911 call where they could hear screaming and crying. Uh, he was, the boyfriend mentioned he was trying to get her arms away from the alligator's

[00:52:54] mouth as he made the call. Then he followed up saying both her arms are off. Gosh, this is awful. Um, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if the article needed to narrate everything that he said. It's almost like too much. Yeah. I mean, they did, they did actually identify her. Her name's Brittany Clark. She's 31. She was in shoulder deep water in the little big Econ river with a boyfriend and another friend. Um, a matter of fact, I think that like I'd seen an article about, I mean, beautiful

[00:53:22] woman, she 31 years old, she, I guess they had sort of like felt something and they were like, Oh, that, uh, imagine if it was an alligator. And it turned out to be a 13 foot alligator. Um, which is like a nightmare. And, uh, yeah, unfortunately I think the deal that the problem you have with somebody that's in that is you've got to, um, stop the bleeding. And I think if you don't have, um, a way to stop the bleeding, then it's going to be very difficult. So terrible story.

[00:53:51] I feel like in Florida, like I don't mess around with water in Florida. Like I'll go to the beaches a little bit, go up to my ankles, but I'm not going in any water otherwise in Florida. Absolutely not. Especially that like dark muddy water. You can't see anything in it. I've seen way too many alligators hanging around these ponds and golf courses and stuff. Like absolutely not. Yeah. The first time everyone down there was Ash's aunt and uncle had a place in Kissimmee and I was golfing and kind of thought the alligator thing, like didn't take it seriously. Never been down there. And there was like three alligators hanging out on the course while I was out there and

[00:54:20] you're just kind of teeing off. And you see when like looking at you and you're like, okay, this is a real thing. Um, yeah, yeah. And she looked like a real fun person, free spirit, beautiful woman. And, uh, it's just terrible for the boyfriend, for the friend, for the family. I mean, I can only imagine. Yeah. Um, I think it's interesting at the end, uh, the article calls out that alligators and attacks on humans are rare in the U S. Um, but they do note that this is the third alligator attack in central Florida over the past week.

[00:54:49] So maybe, uh, yeah, just stay out of the water down there. Like Mike's saying, you're out hiking, especially in the woods. Ready for slashers. We have anything cheery coming up after this, after this. Yeah. Let's talk about, yeah, this is morbid. We had a kid dying of rabies.

[00:55:19] We got beer attacks. We got hikers getting around. It's tough. Um, so we'll talk about gear stuff here. So, um, there's a flying umbrella. Some guy, I feel like this can't be real. This is going to, did Stomp pull this? Yeah, I think Stomp pulled this. If you didn't pull it, Stomp pulled it. I haven't looked at this one yet, but, um, this kid invented a flying umbrella. Uh, so it's a hand-free umbrella that, um, this guy, John C, he's got a YouTube channel

[00:55:45] called I build stuff and he turned it a sci-fi dream into reality with the flying umbrella, which is a drone powered umbrella that hovers above you to keep you dry without any effort. So, uh, he had done a prototype in 2024 and then, um, now he's, he's improved on that prototype, which is pretty cool. So it's basically, it looks exactly like an umbrella, but it's got four drones on the end of it. And then it's just MIT kid walking. He's soaking wet under it. So it makes no sense.

[00:56:12] His marketing's terrible, but it's a good idea, I guess. Yeah. I mean, to me, it's just a, it's basically just a really wide flat drone. Yeah. But it's neat. I don't think we'll be taking these on the trail anytime soon. Yeah, no, it's not worth the trouble. And it's like, it's, um, very loud right on your head too with the drone. So, uh, nice try kid. Not going to happen though. Yeah. As, as far as things I am taking on the trail now, I, I joined, uh, the cult of chairs that we have.

[00:56:41] And I actually picked this up when, uh, is Aria gives you your dividends when you get those like at the end of the year we got them, but I grabbed one of these Helinox chair zeros. Uh, and I was skeptical of you guys at first. So I bought it. I hadn't used it yet, but that thing is clutch. It's really nice. If you take it with you, it's super light. I, uh, threw it out when I was out with Rylan, uh, and it was fantastic. It was really nice. A million times better than sitting on a log or on the ground. And it's only a pound. So it's, it's, it's absolutely my 11th essential at this point.

[00:57:11] Yeah. I mean, it, it kind of, uh, has like a drawstring almost running through tubes sort of in the middle of it. So it assembles really easily. You kind of just stack it all together and then it's got this nylon mesh that basically goes over all these end points. Um, you can set it up in like less than a minute. Uh, and it's, it's great. It's got, I think you can get even the bigger ones, I think have like a 250 pound weight limit. I think the normal ones are like 225 or something. So, um, really, really nice thing. And it's a lot, I don't know how to describe it too.

[00:57:40] It just, it's, it is a lot nicer than I expected it would be. Like you said, I, I underestimated how nice it is not to sit on the ground when you're out on a hike and just chilling. It's really nice. Yeah. No, it's a game changer. I highly recommend it. If you're going to be out there, spend any time on a summit, like get the, get the heel and ox chair a hundred percent. Yep.

[00:57:58] So, Hey, what's that sound? It must be time for the pop culture segment with Mike and stop. All right, Nick, moving on to a pop culture talk and then music minutes.

[00:58:26] So the lead singer of the village people, Victor Willis has died. So that is a cultural icon from the seventies and eighties that has passed away. The police officer, Nick from the who's left. I feel like the Indian guy and the construction guy are left. Okay. Uh, so it's the YMCA folks. That's what we're looking at. Yeah. The macho man in the Navy. Um, yeah, they had, matter of fact, they had their own movie in the seventies, a TV movie. So yeah. Uh, cultural icons for sure. Awesome.

[00:58:55] Well, rest in peace. And, uh, music will be remembered for a long time and years to come. I'm sure. Yep. Yep. So cultural icon, but speaking of music, Nick, this is the part of the show where you do the music minute. Yeah. So we had, I think you ended up, I don't know if I put, I think I put a naked and famous song in one of the reels. And you're like, Oh, Hey, by the way, I like this song by the naked and famous. And I have these songs too. And I was like, Mike, we found, we found common musical ground. I feel like it's been not that there's nothing that we like.

[00:59:23] That's the same, but this is more, one of the newer, as you'd say, an indie artist, uh, that you like that. I also like, so I figured we had to throw this album out. So, um, the album for this week is passive me, aggressive you, um, came out in 2010 by the naked and famous. So this was released in September of 2010. It was the debut album put out by the Auckland band. Uh, Auckland is in New Zealand and it debuted at number one in New Zealand, uh, launching their international breakthrough.

[00:59:51] Uh, the record blends pretty seamlessly synth pop, indie rock, dream pop, electro rock, shoegaze, um, sort of combining these, all these electronics with really soaring guitar textures and sort of a, as it was put in a Wikipedia article, I read festival ready courses, which I'd agree with. So the vocalists, um, are Alyssa Zylith and Tom Powers, um, who trade leak vocals throughout the album. Tom Powers also plays guitar and he actually is their producer for the most part.

[01:00:20] He does all the production on their albums, which is kind of neat. Um, and that kind of creates most of their sound is sort of these trade and vocals. Um, I think his guitar work while maybe not super technical, um, and his production definitely gives the naked and famous sort of their signature sound. Uh, the breakout singles from this album were young blood. Um, that's the first song I heard by them and punching in a dream, um, sort of became indie anthems in the early 2010s. Uh, young blood reached number one, New Zealand and earned widespread international exposure through TV, film and commercials.

[01:00:50] I think this finally broke out. I remember one of my friends sort of telling me that this got over to like, uh, one of the Boston radio stations probably a few years later. I'm like, Oh yeah, I've been listening to that song for a couple of years already. So I kind of felt, felt, uh, like in the know there, um, critics praise the album's infectious hooks and polished production. Um, and many highlighting its massive choruses while noting influences from, uh, sort of the eighties, probably above anything else. Um, at the 2011 New Zealand music awards, the album was the dominant winner and took album

[01:01:19] of the year and best alternative album. And the band also won best grouping breakthrough artists of the year. Um, and a little bit, my personal relationship with this album, and I'd put it in my top 10, but this came out, uh, basically when I was a sophomore in college, I probably heard it around when I was a junior or senior. Um, remember listening to it like skateboarding, surfing, just college parties, like sort of all that super nostalgic, like those times in my life. Um, young blood.

[01:01:47] I don't know how many times I listened to that song probably way too much. Um, I really think to harp on the production again on this album, it's really top notch. It's done really well. I think it's got a little bit of everything. Um, guitars, synth, dreamy vocals, and it's a whole album as it in itself in terms of, I mean, like, it's just the whole thing flows one into another. It's meant to be listened to as an album. There's definitely the singles on it, but there's sort of an overarching theme with sort of the guitar riffs and stuff going through here. Um, and I think it's interesting too, cause there's a few New Zealand bands like this,

[01:02:17] um, like gypsy and the cat and a few others where it's like New Zealand was kind of reflecting on the 80s synth pop and nineties grunge coming from America and sort of doing their own take on it. Um, I think that this is their strongest album. Um, close second, probably being in rolling waves. Um, and I've also seen them three times live and they put on a great show. So, um, if you do like, uh, Oh, go ahead.

[01:02:43] Oh, I was just going to say, so, um, I do like to do some comparative artists if you like them. Um, we probably throw out a lot of terms where you'll know if you like them and if you're not into like synths and like that 80 sound, you're probably not going to like them a ton. But if you like MGMT, M83 churches, passion pit, um, they're right sort of in that vein. I think there were quite a few bands in the 2010s that came out that sounded similar to them. Um, but nothing quite like them. So. Yeah.

[01:03:10] I think I stumbled on these guys through like maybe movie soundtrack or something like that. Like I have girls like you, which is on that album in my heavy rotation. I think that that was like one of my most listened to songs. It's just a cool, I don't know. It's just an eerie song. It's like a, it's kind of a bitter song. Um, but it's just, I don't know. There's something about that song. I just always have liked it. And I, you know, I've all, I've listened to the other music from them. I mean, things haven't stuck as much, but it's interesting. I saw you used it on one of the Instagram posts and I was like, I know that band.

[01:03:39] And then it clicked for me. I was like, Oh yeah, that's girls like you. And then, um, yeah, I've been listening to them a little bit more. So yeah, it's a good pick. And usually it's tough for me because I like the commercial stuff and this is a little bit more obscure. So yeah, I think there's even on that album though, there's probably five or six tracks that even if you're not into more, like, I don't even want to say progressive. Cause it's like, if you like eat, it's almost like house music. Some of it, I feel like it's in this weird vein. Um, but it's pretty accessible, I think to a lot of people. And, uh, they did like an acoustic album a little while back, which was really neat

[01:04:09] too, of a lot of their tracks. So I hope they get back together and they tour eventually, but. Yeah. I would definitely love to see them with it. If it went, I would go, but we'll see if they tour. But yeah, girls like you was like an amazing song. Like I, I'm shocked that it doesn't get more. It's going to be one of those songs. So someone's going to pick it into a, put it into a soundtrack and it's going to blow up. I feel like. Oh yeah. It's, it's funny. I was talking with this. So Ashley likes them a lot too.

[01:04:45] Like one of those shows or the Grey's Anatomy where if like they threw it in there, like it would probably blow up like overnight even more. So like it was a single, I think in New Zealand, but it's kind of crazy to me. Yeah. Somebody remit. I mean, I don't know. Just, it's just very like, um, I think maybe the issue with it is it does have like a long, like one or two minutes sort of synth, like, uh, outro. Yes, it does. Cause it's, cause it's the last, I think cause it's the last song on the album. So that's why it's got that like riff at the end of it. But yeah. Yeah. But good stuff.

[01:05:14] Anyway, but a good, good choice, young Nick. I finally feel like it's a rare, uh, win-win for both of us. Yes. Yes. All right. Well, anyway, so moving on to housekeeping here. So, um, if you want stickers, you can go check that out. Uh, you can get stickers at the mountain wanderer or spinners pizza parlor in Andover, Mouse. And then Nick, do we have any more patches left? We've got plenty of patches, plenty of patches. I got to get some patches to you too. Next time we see each other, I forgot to exchange stickers and patches when they last saw each other.

[01:05:45] We can do that at Katahdin. So we'll have plenty of time to do that. Yeah. Um, all right. So stickers are two 50 each. So you can get those mailed directly to your door. Just send us a, uh, a Venmo to the slasher Venmo. You can hit us up over Instagram if you want the details on how to get that. And then we've got swag. If you want to order anything on our bonfire shop, um, choose between our super popular hoodies, classic or V-neck t-shirts and more. Color selection is great and they're priced to move. And then if you want to donate to us, you can go to Slasher's Buy Me A Coffee site.

[01:06:13] Donations help us pay for web hosting, distribution, live events, and Nick's Bicycle Lessons. So feel free to, uh, to do that. And then if you want to check the box to become monthly supporter, you can do that as well. Yes. I mean, thank all our senators. We do. Yeah. Thank you very much. Uh, I guess so that's what you call the senator if you, um, if you do a monthly deal there. So. Yes.

[01:06:44] Hey, hold my beer. It's time to find out what Mike and Stomp are drinking on this week's Beer Talk. All right. Now as a part of the show, we talk about what beer we're drinking. I am not drinking a beer, Nick, cause I'm injured. And I'll talk about that in a moment. But, uh, are you drinking anything? I'm not drinking anything tonight, but I did have some brews over 4th of July weekend. And I wanted to shout out this, uh, newer light session IPA I found.

[01:07:12] Um, I'm calling it a dad beer because it's like, it's like 4%. It's like 95 calories. So it's, you can have a few without being concerned about like maybe your status and what you're doing. Um, but it's cloud candy light by mighty squirrel. So they're down here in mass. Um, they make a cloud candy and a double cloud candy. And I accidentally picked it. Like I didn't realize it was the cloud candy light version that they make, but it's super tasty. I brought some, uh, when we wrapped up our Osceola hike and I think, uh, Peter and Tom

[01:07:40] and, uh, Paul G all had one and really enjoyed it and kind of where it's one of those beers like it doesn't taste like a light beer. Like I think especially for an IPA, sometimes they're, they're kind of tough going when they try to sort of limit the calories and the taste, but it's, it's really good. And I recommend it's a good, it's a good July beer, especially when it's like 95 degrees and you're not really looking to drink like an 8% double IPA or something. Right. Yeah. I think I've had the regular cloud candy, which is like a blue, um, can. So this sounds like just another version. It's always good. Yep. Yeah.

[01:08:10] These are blue with a little orange on the bottom is how it gives it away. Okay. Similar theme. Yeah. Excellent. Yeah. I did pick up, um, I got Sebago Brewing Company. I got Fry's Leap, which is a kind of a, a tip to, um, on Sebago there's Fry Island and then across from Fry Island, there's like a, a set of cliffs that you're not supposed to jump off of the, I've been busted by the cops jumping off of those before, but it's called Fry Leap. And, um, yeah, it was kind of cool to have that. They sell them in six packs. So it's a 12 ounce. Oh, that's neat. That's neat.

[01:08:40] A little landmark there. Right. Yeah. So just watch out for the cops. Believe me, they'll, they'll bust you. I knew we should have gone left back there. Stomp. Don't worry. I know it's this way. I've got a feeling in my gut. Uh, are you sure you're not about to have a bowel emergency? See? Uh, totally. We got this. But I just blew out my hip.

[01:09:08] Fell down that gully with my 40 year old micro spikes. Suck it up, Stomp. It's 4 PM. We're at 3,500 feet. We got nine miles back to the parking lot. Your leg may be broken. We got no cell connection and we can't feel our fingers. But we're finishing all of my list tonight. By the way, I need some water. I'm empty. I would if I could see what I'm doing, but my headlamp batteries are dead. You gotta be kidding me. What a chump. This is the last time I hike with you. Ha! Whatever, mister. Do you know me?

[01:09:38] I have a podcast. Whatever. Let's find out what Mike and Stomp have been hiking. Um, all right, Nick, uh, here is the part of the show where we talk about what hikes we've been on recently. So, um, you've been, I got one hike I can add here, but, uh, you've been, you've been to a couple of different places here. So where you been? Yeah. So it's been a few weeks since we've recorded, since we had the So You Want to last week. Um, I took a day off. It looked like pretty nice. This is back on Thursday, June 25th.

[01:10:08] I think it was Thursday anyways. Um, and wanted to get out with Rylan and do something. Uh, was looking for things in her sort of wheelhouse as far as what we've figured out she can sort of do with elevation and mileage. Um, and ended up finding, uh, this hike called Mount Norwood tuck, which I'm sure it's familiar to with people in the Amherst area. I've never been out to Amherst, um, short of seeing UMass Amherst probably when I was applying to college there a long time ago. Um, and it's out in this area, the Holyoke range. So it's, it's right around Amherst.

[01:10:38] I think the Holyoke range is a part of the, the bigger Monodnock or Metacomic Monodnock range. Um, sort of goes across all these interesting little craggy sort of cliff-like peaks. I think Norwood tuck's only around 1300 feet. So it's not big, but the loop we did was maybe four, I think five miles and like 11, 1200 feet. Um, really ledgy had, uh, some, some nice little scrambly sections. Um, we did this, uh, loop with, um, this thing called rattlesnake knob that had some views. It was maybe like a thousand ish feet.

[01:11:06] And then, um, you go by this thing called the horse caves, um, and not to dive super much into the history, but if you remember Shays' Rebellion in the recesses of your brain from probably when you learned about the revolutionary war, a little bit bigger of a thing in mass, but it's basically, um, legend that the horses and sort of people from Shays' Rebellion actually hid out here in these caves, um, way back in, uh, I think it would have been sort of the late 1700s, sort of before we became a country, but kind of post revolution

[01:11:33] war, um, where things weren't always like super great with everybody wanting to do the same thing as far as what the government was going on. Um, so you can look at that if you want to. Um, but that was all really neat. And then afterwards we did a swim at Puffer's pond, which I believe was in Amherst and kind of cooled off a little bit. So that was super nice. Um, and then on the third, um, ended up back at the Osceola's, which I was at last time I was in the whites. Um, Peter needed them for summer.

[01:12:00] None of us wanted to do a super long hike with how hot it was supposed to be. Um, we met there at 6 30 AM. Um, we had me, Peter, Tom, and then we had Paul Lamar and Paul Gamal. So we had the two Pauls, Peter and Tom. And, um, yeah, we went out and back basically to East Osceola and we tagged on the side trip once again to middle and West. Peter reminded me too, that, uh, if you are going for the trail, right, so middle and West are on the trail, right? 72 list.

[01:12:28] And if you are getting those, I forgot one unique thing about that list is you can only count one peak per trip. So I had to get out there again to be able to count it. And I guess it goes with a whole list too, which could end up getting interesting for like North, South twin, like things like that. So definitely remember that tidbit. If you are filling that list out. Um, but yeah, just a, it was a good day. It was really warm. We started at six 30 by the time we were coming down around one, it was like super toasty. I was surprised to see how many people were headed up midday.

[01:12:54] Um, maybe around 70 degrees when we started, it was definitely in the mid eighties, close to 90 by the time we finished. Um, but a solid day. There was a little bit of Canadian wildfire haze. Um, kind of breezy when we were on Osceola first time. And by the time we came back, uh, from East, I think over Osceola again, we're all, we're like, yeah, it's, it's freaking hot out. So, um, wasn't too bad out to West. Um, that was funny that the only people that had signed the middle canister was there, or I should say there was nobody that signed the middle canister since we had been out there with Sarah, Beth and Jay.

[01:13:24] So that was kind of neat. And Lamar found the canister this time on middle. I actually missed it. So we signed West signed middle headed back down. I jumped in the mad river on the way home and sort of the junction of upper mad river road in 49, which was fantastic. Nothing better than jumping in a river. Oh God. A hundred degree day. Oh God. It was so good. Yeah. I just had like grabbed like a cold Gatorade. I mentioned, I, so I packed a cooler full of cold Gatorade and ice and a couple of beers that we enjoyed in the parking lot on the way down on our Helinox chairs, which was good. Nice. Um, and that was fun.

[01:13:53] And, and yeah, I just hopped in the river with like a cold Gatorade and sat there for like 30 minutes before I went home, which was a really good decision and cooled my body core off a bit, but. Right. Yeah. It's been, it's been really hot. So yeah, I didn't get out last weekend. Like I, I think I had mentioned that earlier in the episode, but I did get out on the 26th and did, uh, Mount Isolation. So our friend Jake, uh, finished his 4,000 footer list. So he's been hiking forever and he's been doing a bunch of redlining activity, but he hadn't finished his 4,000 footer.

[01:14:21] So, uh, that was the day that he actually got out. We were going to do it like two, three weeks ago, but the weather wasn't good. So we finally got an absolute perfect day for it. So we had a group of, I think there was like probably like 12 of us overall, but there was split into a couple of different groups. So, um, we parked cars at the, um, Rocky Branch Trail and then I took myself and, uh, who else came with me? Oh, my friend Jay was there and then, um, Steve each shit.

[01:14:50] So the three of us went and, um, started a little bit ahead. Oh, and then Peter and Jackson as well. So, uh, Steve wasn't with us. That's right. It was Peter and Jackson and Jay. And then a group, so we started a little bit ahead. There was another group of Cindy, um, Lynn and, um, Julie that had started even before us. So we basically, everybody kind of caught up to each other at Glen Boulder and the groups kind of came together.

[01:15:17] And then, uh, we went up to Davis path, hung out on Davis path junction for like 20 minutes because some of the crew went to Bootspur. I just sat on my butt and relaxed and then headed down to isolation. So we, we went and tried to find the canister for North isolation, but we couldn't find it. So North isolation, huh? I didn't know that was actually a thing. Is it like right off the trail? Yeah. It's like maybe a hundred foot, 200 foot bushwhack up to North isolation. Yeah.

[01:15:47] Okay. Cool. That whole area there is just like, it's, it's all blow, blow downs and it's, it's trail is clear now, but it looks like a, a bomb went off in that section. Oh yeah. And then we went to isolation. We were waiting for like Cindy and Julie had, um, they were a little bit behind us. So we waited for them to get there. And then we had like, you know, we had shots on the summit and took a bunch of photos, sat in our chairs for a while and then started heading down. That's when I started having trouble.

[01:16:15] So I had had trouble on the previous hike I had done on the Pemi river traverse the last mile and a half or so. I got this like weird sharp pain in my, um, quad on the inside of my quad, but above my knee and then it, um, I started feeling it right when we started coming down from isolation. I was like, crap, this is gonna be a long hike out. So I was like struggling badly. Like normally I'll go downhill at like 22 minutes a mile. I was doing like 30 minutes and like every time I bent my leg, it felt like just agony.

[01:16:44] So it's a, um, I did a little bit of like chat GPT doctoring and I think it's a vastus medallus oblique. So they call it a VMO strain, maybe a type one. So I'm just resting right now. And, um, you know, otherwise I was walking and everything's fine. It's just the downhill bending the leg. It was like a sharp pain. So slow going, getting out and Rocky branch trail sucks. I hate that trail. Yeah. I've never, a lot of, a lot of people I was talking with like Peter and them on the

[01:17:13] way out and they're like, Oh, you've never done that. And I've only done in the winter. I've never gone down that way. I've always, I think I've done isolation three or four times and it's always been out and back from Glenn Boulder, but they did not have anything good to say about that trail on the way out. Yeah. I mean, we did parts of it when we did the, um, but we did engine Hill and ISO express. Oh yeah, that's fair. So that's fair. Um, but yeah, it's just not a good trail. I'm not a big fan, but anyway. Um, so, but I think I'll be resting until Katahdin will be my debut, but, um, but I think that's it.

[01:17:42] Let's skip the notable hikes. I do want to give one shout out to listener. Let me just see here. I was saying congrats. Congrats to Jakester, Jake for finishing the 48 officially. Finally. No, he's done a ton of stuff. Yeah. And I had, um, Jake and Julie came over to Papa's beach and hung out for the night and, uh, everyone decided that they liked Jake and Julie. My brother-in-law's and his girlfriend decided they liked Jake and Julie better than me. So, which is understandable. I guess.

[01:18:09] Anyway, but, um, let me see here. I had, um, I wanted to give a shout out to one of the listeners, even though we're not going to, so we're going to skip the, um, we're going to skip notable hike of the week, but I'll just give a shout out. Jake Fletcher. Um, he had tagged us and, uh, does some cool hiking with his wife and family and stuff. So shout out to Jake listener.

[01:18:36] And, uh, we'll get to, we'll get to the remaining, um, listener or notable hikers of the week next week, but why don't we just go into our guest of the week here, Nick? Sure. So we've got, uh, our friend, Amy, uh, our new friend, Amy, uh, who is kind enough to come on and take her time. She's the manager over at the flume gorge. Uh, one of my childhood sort of spots that I always think back to have going to New Hampshire. And, uh, she also was on PEMI, uh, sort of back during their formation. So we had a really interesting conversation with her and we'll, uh, we'll go into that right now.

[01:19:06] Do the dick. It's time for slashers guest of the week. Very cool. Very cool.

[01:19:38] So we're super happy to welcome Amy Swift. Who's joining us. She's the manager of the flume gorge. Um, she's also been a bit involved with PEMI search and rescue back a little while ago. I think hiker avid mountain biker. Um, so thanks for joining us tonight, Amy. Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. This is exciting. I enjoy your show. Thank you for listening. We appreciate it. So do you want to maybe introduce yourselves a little bit to the listeners beyond maybe what I kind of mentioned there?

[01:20:08] Sure. Sure. Um, well, like you said, um, I'm the manager at the flume gorge, but, uh, even more so I'm part of the whole hiker community and outdoor recreation community. And, uh, uh, just, um, a lot of what my job is, is, is a pleasure because we talk to all kinds of people who come to Franconia notch, whether they're hiking or passing through to do other activities. We're a big part of that community.

[01:20:35] I've been active with the state now for somewhere around 27 years, um, working on all, you know, different capacities as many of us do in the state parks. Very cool. So it's funny. We're going back and forth a little bit, um, through email before he kind of hopped on and chatted. Now you kind of mentioned, and I've mentioned it too on this episode, a few on this episode on this podcast a few times, but the flume gorge is super nostalgic for me.

[01:21:03] So I was kind of stoked to get somebody on once we sort of got a name. Um, and you were kind of mentioning that you had a similar experience with kind of, sounds like you grew up sort of in the lakes region of New Hampshire and kind of mentioned these like loops through like Crawford notch as a kid and camping and sort of how it led you down this path. So did you want to chat about that a little bit and sort of how you ended up where you are? Yeah, I'll share that. Um, that is a, that's a big part of how, how, um, I ended up there was, uh, as a kid, you know, we were in the lakes region.

[01:21:32] So you're already in a playground, right? You have the lakes. But, um, when I was, uh, my mom was the one who raised myself, my two brothers. And for summertime, when she had some time off, we'd take off in the car and you'd go for a picnic lunch day. But almost, almost every summer you might end up, we might end up at the flume and that was our, one of our big days out.

[01:21:57] We weren't, weren't going to do a whole lot beyond that, except that what, what mattered was she got us out there and, uh, we would stop at different swimming holes, but that would be like the highlight and then a big picnic lunch and look forward to it. But, uh, even before then, when I was, um, just a little kid, we had some close friends that were very much like family in, uh, Bartlett.

[01:22:22] And it was a big deal every summer to go over where the old CCC camp was located right there at the base of Sawyer River where, uh, right by, um, is it fourth iron? And, uh, so my uncle would grab one of the big tents from the forest service and we'd camp in there. You know, you can't camp where we used to go anymore, but, uh, so my earliest memories were doing that. And he'd take my brother and go off into the dry river wilderness, which was always intriguing.

[01:22:51] And the whole Crawford Notch area was just the mystique of the mountains. And you just get this whole excitement to just go every year. Um, once I was old enough, I would end up, uh, doing some hikes. First big hike of the, of my whole career of hiking was Mount Shikarwa. And, uh, that was a big deal. That was with my brothers. Champney Falls Trail. Cool. Yeah.

[01:23:18] And then, uh, once I was old enough, I'd steal my oldest brother's gear. If he wasn't using it, it was on my back and started taking off. Um, do day hikes, but, um, get into some solo overnights, a little bit of great golf action, some adventures there, just being out there just became a part of the whole, the whole part of my life of just one.

[01:23:44] Remember your, do you remember your first, um, solo overnight? Um, let's see. My very first one probably was the one in the great golf, grabbed his old Kelty internal frame pack, like one of the best made at the time and all that, all the gear you didn't need and half a pound of bacon. You know, that's how you go and head up into the great golf and, uh, sneak into a spot, kind

[01:24:12] of stealth camp with some of the other stealth campers near Sphinx or excuse me, Spalding Lake. And, um, and just above this, actually above the Sphinx junction and, uh, right where you're not supposed to, you know, bad and, um, spending the night and hitting the great golf headwall in Mount Washington the next day. And I, if I remember right, I came down the same way, but, uh, yeah, that was the very first time.

[01:24:41] That's pretty brave for a first overnight. Yeah. I, you know, get up at four, eight, one and go hit the mountains. Right. You don't know any better. Yeah. And I just knew it was like, I've got to live in the mountains. That's where I want to be. So, um, over time I did, I ended up after I left school and moved into, um, I was in the sugar Hill area and, um, um, spent my time hiking and working and I didn't start for the state till later.

[01:25:11] But, um, my son, I have one child and it was like, great, you're going to hike too. Get him into it, which would bring me full circle. Eventually. I'll tell you about that to the flume, but, um, there's a whole lot to that, um, getting out there. And it just, that's all that mattered. You know, fun things like early morning hikes, get up Lafayette before, before anyone else and watch the sunrise, that type of thing.

[01:25:39] Were you like working on any lists kind of at the time or you were just getting out and whatever you wanted to? I've never been a list person. Okay. I still have five of the 4,000 footers and I can't even, honestly, I'd have to count the bonds too. Um, when I did go out there, it ended up, we were in a rainstorm and I honestly couldn't tell you, I know we hit the summits because of our, our whole, uh, I don't even think we

[01:26:09] had GPS at the time. We think we hit the summits and I don't count them because it's like, nah, if you can't be sure what you did, you didn't finish. Now I, um, never been a list person. I'd kind of like to say that eventually someday I'd red line everything. I think hiking for me has always been, you know, go see what's around the next bend. Or go up a trail you've never been up before, but an awful lot of repeating it. When you fall in love with it, you just do it.

[01:26:38] Being above tree line is, is, there's nothing like it. So that's always been, you get there and that's where you want to be. So that was a big part. Yeah. I can't say I disagree with you there. Yeah. So how did you kind of go down the path of eventually working for the state? Well, um, working in the private sector for a while, that was good. Money. Seasonal work is about all the state could offer at the time. Um, I always wanted to get on ski patrol at Cannon.

[01:27:08] So there was a little goal there eventually. Oh, cool. And, um, I had been on ski patrol and in Wolfboro at a little place called Abenaki when I was 18. So Cannon was the dream. Um, eventually made the jump over there in 2000, winter of 2001. And just, you do what you do in all the state parks positions, unless you come in as a manager to begin with. And you do every job that you can grab.

[01:27:36] So I was basically the parking lot, uh, supervisor, if you will, not even a supervisor really. But, uh, yeah. And then I got into ski patrol. Um, and from there ran the trail crew in the summer, um, on Cannon. Um, before that though, uh, excuse me, before that in 2002, I ended up down at the flume, uh, just working trail crew and working my way through all the positions there.

[01:28:06] Just, just to be a part of it. You know, they need help you jump in. Right. Um, ran the trail crew at Cannon for a while. And that was during my years when I did search and rescue as well. Okay. And, um, probably the height of hiking. Um, both my wife and I are big into hiking. We both ski patrol together. And, uh, during those years we were actually, she was also on PEMI.

[01:28:32] But, um, we'd have a lot of fun because we'd work four days a week, uh, long days and then jump out on the trails and do some traverses. That's when we did a number of the traverses around here, presidential, kinsmen. Um, and then we moved on to, uh, just, just, if there's a hike to do, we just did it. Did it every day.

[01:28:55] But, so, um, then working for the state eventually, uh, the opening came for the flume and I jumped in there as manager. So it's an opportunity to live and work here full time. And, uh, I think I'm really fortunate to do that. So really. Was, was like a management position over there. Kind of like, did you have your eye on that for a while?

[01:29:19] Almost like how you had your goals to like be on skin and cannon ski patrol at first, or did it just kind of opportunity went and you're like, Hey, like this is going to be awesome. Or how did that work? That for me personally, that was never a goal. I never saw myself in that position. I'm like, nah, I'll do this all forever. When that came along, it was an opportunity to, uh, you know, you, you're in a position to grab up a full-time position with the state of New Hampshire. It's pretty, pretty good deal.

[01:29:46] If you've, if you can qualify and you want to do the job, it's, it's really a great place to work. So, uh, when that came up, I almost, I got a little nervous about it. There's a lot of responsibility, but the manager at the time had been my mentor and I ended up getting the position. So that's how I ended up there.

[01:30:06] Uh, the beauty of it is I've, I've done most of the jobs that, that I now supervise and we work as a team and great people and, uh, meeting all the people that come to visit. That's fantastic. So for maybe some of our listeners, if you're not, it's funny too, like with the flume gorge, like I know people that like really know it. Cause like people go, then there's the people that are like, Oh, that's like a tourist trap. Like I'm not going to go to the flume, which is kind of there.

[01:30:32] And I've seen both sides of it cause I've been down the touristy kind of route as a kid with parents who really didn't hike. Um, like my parents, we go to like the basin and lost river and polar caves and all these places, but my parents didn't really hike per se. My dad got into it a little bit later. Sure. Kind of when I did, but, um, do you want to kind of give a run through of what like the flume gorge is and what's the deal with what's the flume? Yeah, sure.

[01:30:53] So the flume is like the, uh, uh, the history of it has been bringing people here for, um, for a long time, you know, over a hundred years, more than a hundred years. Um, there's, um, the two mile walking trail is really just the basics. So people walk in and go, gee, I've never been here. So our, our big explanation is, is pretty simple. It's like, it's going to be a wide gravel path.

[01:31:22] It's not even like our hiking of our, of our trails that surround us there, you know? So we're like, get yourself out there. Any, almost anyone can do it. You know, they're mountains. It's still up and up and downhill, but it's about, what's it about a 400 foot elevate up and down? Yeah. It's not even much, you know? So it's like 1300 feet to start. You drop down to the river, the highest you go is 1600 feet. And then you're dropping back down to the river and back up a hill.

[01:31:50] But, um, so we just tell people, you know, you can spend an hour and a half. You can spend half the day, but it's two miles long. You take your time. And if you can just go in, people go in and they're like, I don't know, maybe skeptical even. And they get in and they see the gorge itself that changes their mind. But, um, what we find is especially families, you know, can my kids do it? And we're like, yeah, you can do it. So it's the, the kids get out there.

[01:32:20] Um, it's easy walk for most of them. And then they just get lost in the whole mystique of the gorge itself. And, uh, then they continue on in the boulders, the boulders are the hit. Of course, we have, uh, the wolf stand for the kids, that type of thing. But that's what we tell folks. Um, certainly almost anyone can walk it. You don't need special equipment. You don't even need to know how to read the map yet.

[01:32:47] And you've got this two mile walking trail through the woods, up and down hills. You can get the sense and you're right in the mountains. You get the views. Uh, we talked about the view of, uh, Liberty and Flume and they get to see that while they're out on the trail as they're coming back. Yeah. So it, it gives them that taste of the woods, the deep woods and the mountains and the rivers. Yeah. And the namesake. So what, what's the, the gorge kind of the namesake of the, the whole two mile loop.

[01:33:16] I know too, there's a couple of different attractions like Liberty falls, like you're going to pass a couple of different geological sort of features and stuff. But what, what is like the gorge itself? Yeah, the gorge itself is about, uh, 700 feet long. It's granite walls. Um, and it was formed, um, before, uh, it was about 200 million years ago as the geologists have explained to us. Uh, so you have your bedrock of granite, the basalt, the lava, the magma was pushed up through

[01:33:44] and with, with time and ice and, you know, freezing and thawing and, and just water that basalt wore away. And it left us the 700 foot long cut in the granite where the brook flows down through, but you're walking on our boardwalk all the way up through and the boardwalk's above the water. Definitely. We've never had issue with too high of water. So when the water's up here, you're above it enough, but it leaves you that, you know,

[01:34:13] 90 foot walls at the center above you looking up at that and, um, going up through there right next to waterfalls. And you come around the corner and especially this year with all the water, then you have, uh, avalanche falls kind of as the climax near the top before you finish out of the gorge and head on your way over to the pool and Liberty Gorge. Yeah. That's the part that always like blew me away as a kid is you have these like boardwalks

[01:34:42] that are literally drilled in and constructed right along the side of the gorge. And like you said, you're above sort of the running water and in there too, it's like, no matter what time of year, it's always like a cold breeze. You're there in the winter. It gets really cold at the mouth of that gorge to have that happen. But, um, it's like nature's air conditioning with the, uh, the cold water sort of running in between the rocks and stuff. And there's all this like fascinating fauna with like moss sort of growing out of the, the, uh, the walls and like trees kind of bending up and arching like out into, to get any little bit of sunlight.

[01:35:09] And, um, to me, it's just always been amazing that someone even like ever found that, that it exists. It's kind of seems like you could easily sort of walk past it. Right. Right. So there's a lot of stories behind that. I was kind of brushing up a little and I won't go into a whole lot of detail, but you know, the one that we use down there is, uh, you know, I just Guernsey, the Guernsey family had a farm that was located right where Indian head resort is. Um, and the story goes that I just was like 93 years old and take off fishing.

[01:35:39] And she found this fantastic fishing place, or she was looking for another fishing hole, found the gorge. Nobody believed her, uh, took her a little while, but she convinced them. And that was, that was not only the discovery, if you will, of the people that lived in the area of the gorge, but it was kind of the beginning of what we talked about, you know, the tourism and that was it. You know, everyone, uh, was taken with it. It was so fascinating.

[01:36:07] And of course, as we, we were talking early, earlier in our emails, you know, there's the boulder that everyone was intrigued with. So that, that was, that was something I didn't know if you wanted me to mention that. Absolutely. Yeah. I will say one thing before we go off on Auntie Guernsey, just one other thing is supposedly she lived to be 108 years old.

[01:36:31] So she discovered this when she was 93 and like 18, 1808, but she lived, but she lived to be, she'll, she lived another 15 years to 108, which is crazy back then. Like, I don't know how true it is, but you know, it's in Appalachia. Yeah. You know, maybe it, maybe it's cause she always was hiking and fishing. That's true. Or she, maybe she found like a little bit of a fountain of youth in there. So yeah. Yeah. I like that. I like that visual of like this spry 93 year old woman, like looking for trout and like pools and going upstream.

[01:37:01] And then she just kind of comes upon this thing, like, holy moly, what's this? Nobody, why has no one found this yet? Yeah. That's great. And then originally, so this great boulder, my understanding is originally this boulder was wedged in between the walls or somewhere up until like the late 1800s. And then what happened to it? So yeah, up until 1883. So that boulder was wedged in there and that was the draw. People came from, I mean, literally all over the world, just as they do today.

[01:37:31] Um, and, and some of the hotels started to spring up around the whole tourism. And of course the, the whole push for the artistic, um, you know, you had that, you had the, you had the folks coming out of the city who wanted to get away and you had the grand hotels. So this great boulder is sitting in there.

[01:37:49] And in 1883, it was June and, um, I, uh, Colonel Greenleaf owned the profile house and also the flume house and the flume itself at that time. And, um, so they're down there. Um, it's raining. There's different stories about the goings on of all the rain. So it gives you a picture of just days and days of it.

[01:38:14] And, uh, there, there was heard from the, um, flume house. Um, there's stories that lightning hit Liberty, but at any rate, it was a landslide that began up on Mount Liberty. Um, the book I had mentioned, I think you threw it in. So there's a quick link to it. And, um, on, in that book, it's the, uh, the flume gorge at Franconia notch by Michael Madigan.

[01:38:39] And he spent some nice research and has some good photos from, from all around. Um, there's a fantastic one from, I think it was maybe even 20 years later of that slide. But at any rate, that brought down the huge slide. And of course, the brooks were just roaring at that point. That slide joined the flume brook and they, they believe an inspection immediately after

[01:39:04] that debris had built up and enough to, um, cause enough pressure to just push everything out, including a great big, uh, slab from one side of the gorge. If you ever have a chance to see the photo that we keep at the flume, I can point out, um, there was also a huge slab of rock that went with that. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, that was the end of the boulder. Yeah.

[01:39:32] Amy, do you, do you, do you have a way of measuring the flow of the brook to determine, like if it, if you know, there's going to be a large or a significant rain event, do you have measuring in there so that you can get a sense of what the flow is to determine whether or not you want people? No, we don't directly. Um, one of the things we have done is paid attention to the forest service, different flow places. I know during one of our, you can look at what the East Pemi's flowing and get a sense. Exactly. Exactly.

[01:40:00] I mean, when we had one of our rescues, there was a night much like that. And we kind of went off of some of that to, um, uh, we were on falling waters trail and on the way down, same sort of thing. We knew that was coming up. So the group that was coming down had to do a little hustling and, and ended up, uh, not being able to cross back over one of the spots. So they just went down the probably would have anyways, but go down that escape road we've used. It comes out right down below. Yeah.

[01:40:31] Yeah. So, um, we've never, we've never had that measurement. Um, been here a lot of years and I've seen pictures from hurricanes past. We've been fortunate. Uh, we've never had problem with the boardwalk because of water. Thankfully. Yeah. Now, how does it work? Do you guys have to replace the boardwalk every so often? Does it like rot pretty good? Like year to year? Or I've always wondered how that works.

[01:40:59] And I know too, um, so if you're not like we can get into two, it is open in the winter and you can go check it out, but you guys rip out the boardwalk at the mouth of the gorge. Um, but like, how does, how does that all work? I guess. Yeah. So the, the boardwalk, like you've seen that, uh, about 300 feet of that boardwalk was designed to come back out and it's all done in sections. As you've may have seen and anyone who goes in there, we'll see those stacked up. Yep.

[01:41:25] And, um, so that's a process in the fall takes about a week and that pretty much puts us all in a really good way as far as that section, because anything that comes out that needs attention, we'll get it immediately. Or, or as we're rebuilding, we rebuild sections and then, um, we're constantly watching the permanent parts, but those aren't in the water as much, but the ones we pull, if we didn't pull them, the ice would crush it when it comes down.

[01:41:55] Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So that, that's, um, also up at Avalanche Falls. So, um, always a fascinating thing. You talk about winter. Um, we've been encouraging folks, um, come on in once we open it back up to, um, I call it at your own risk hiking. So basically we put up the same, similar signage that you might see anywhere except to let people know that, um, it's not like summer you're on your own, but great place to get a taste for

[01:42:25] winter hiking without exposing yourself too far into the more difficult, uh, places to go winter hiking. You, you really are in a pretty tame area. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's a, it's a great spot. It's, it's probably one of the first spots that I'd gone snowshoeing and kind of, and I don't, I don't even know. This was probably 20, gosh, 27. It was before I was married. So it's probably 2016. Like, I don't know if how officially how long it's been open the winter, but we noticed people

[01:42:53] in any event going around to the side and kind of popping through there. There was a snowshoe path. So I'm like, I think we're good. But yeah, um, the views up to Liberty and flume when you descend down kind of over the covered bridge are pretty incredible. You don't really get that in the summer. Yeah. Um, and it's, it's just super peaceful there. And like you mentioned, you can go up even past like over. So you kind of loop off over the top and you can still see like avalanche falls in the winter. Yeah. You definitely need spikes or something if you're going down the boardwalk close to it, but yeah, it's a very cool thing to check out.

[01:43:21] And for some reason I always, I don't know if it's like a selfish thing or whatever, but it's neat to be there when it's like only you, like I've been there before with just me and my wife and my daughter when she was really small and we were like the only people there was like a Sunday morning or something on like an off holiday weekend. It's really neat to have the place to yourself. Yeah. It's, it's a, it's pretty awesome. We, I really, I encourage folks. Um, we, we only, the only thing we'll ask, I'll say this as, as someone who's a, doing a lot of maintenance with the trail crew.

[01:43:48] Uh, if we're closed, it's cause we're doing maintenance, but, uh, we try to announce it. We try to put it on our website to really let people know that, you know, usually late, mid to late November and then mid to late April. Um, we just have a period of time where we're like, okay, so you got to give us time to cut trees, put the boardwalk in, put the signs out or the opposite. Uh, but in between I'll put up trail maps to try to help people.

[01:44:14] And, and, um, I just encourage folks, you know, follow the hike safe rules, um, and make sure you're bringing micro spikes. Um, I, I get folks who get started and then as soon as you get to the hills, they're like, whoa, this is great. So yeah, micro spikes are indefinite. At least bring them along. You never know what the ice is going to do. And then we only ask that, uh, just let the ice climbers go in the gorge.

[01:44:39] Um, cause, um, they're equipped, but, uh, yeah, I encourage folks, if you have time and you want to get out in the winter, uh, the DOT plows out two of the lots for us. You'll see right where our ticket booths are now. I'll open up that gate. I'll have a little bit of a kiosk set up with some information and, uh, people are absolutely welcome to come and enjoy some winter time out there. Cause it's a pretty special, special place to see.

[01:45:07] You don't, you don't often get to see water, um, or ice formations like that in nature. Not, not right there. Not like that without traveling way into the back country. Yeah. It's, it's, it's such a great, and like you kind of capped off at the top of the conversation, I guess that is a great jumping off point. Like I think of like full circle, even with, um, you mentioned going there as a kid and now you're working there as a manager. Um, I have a little bit where it's like, I started, my parents are generally non-hikers and it kind of got me.

[01:45:36] And I literally remember standing at like that last viewpoint, probably past like the wolf cave or cub cave, I forget what it's called. Um, and there's a nice cutout of Liberty and Flume. And I remember asking my like parents there, if you could hike those mountains, they're like, I don't, maybe like, I don't know. So now it's funny to think in retrospect, but full circle of going up there now and taking my kids up there and also being a trail maintainer. Um, so it's kind of, it's kind of cool to think how that place really can get a lot of people in to, I think, hiking in the mountains, even if you've never done it before. It's very accessible.

[01:46:04] It's, and it's very educational. Um, yeah, it's, it's a great spot. It is. I find it really rewarding too. You'll get, you'll get folks that have some experience hiking and then you get the people who've never hiked in the whites and then, and they come in for information and you pull out, you pull out the big map and you start discussing the hiking trails and where have you been and, um, give them the big picture of what we have to offer in the white mountains. And more than once I've helped them get started and say, you know, we have Mount Pema Jowasset

[01:46:34] and we have artists, artists bluff, the infamous artists bluff that everyone knows in the fall is being so crowded, but, um, certainly lonesome lake and, and they, they get a taste for it. And if we can direct people, um, it can be really, really rewarding for us too. When you, when you get these folks that come back and go, wow, you know, I've hiked the West, I've hiked in Europe. I've never hiked in the white mountains. They are respectable. Look at these things.

[01:47:01] They're like, how do you, how do you folks deal with all the rocks? I'm like, Oh, I don't know. That's how we are. That's all right. What do you think? And they do, they love it, but they didn't expect how rugged the white mountains would be. So. Do you ever bump into people, especially like in the, you know, the early or the late spring season where they're like, Oh, I'm going to go up the flume slide trail. And then you're like, Oh, no, sir. You don't want to do that. Yeah. Yeah. A lot. We, we, we hand out advice. We hope people will listen to us.

[01:47:30] Um, on my staff, I have a number of people who have dedicated their lives to hiking on their free time, you know, like they're, they really love it. And the folks who don't hike, um, and, and work with us there, they have a good sense of, of what we're trying to do. And more often than not, we're like, you know, it's, it's maybe not a good time of year to do flume slide or, or gee, you know, it's five o'clock and I don't think you really want to do the ridge today. Um, but let's talk about tomorrow and, or maybe there's this short hike you could do

[01:48:00] at three o'clock in the afternoon and then prep for tomorrow or something and, uh, help folks with weather and, and, and all that type of thing. So we're, we're kind of a all over information center. Um, so yeah, so before, before having to go out and rescue them, like you, you've done before you've, you're more proactive now, right? Oh yeah, for sure. Hey, you need a map. We have maps, you know, and yeah, very much so. Yeah.

[01:48:27] And then you've been involved in search and rescue for a long time, right? Uh, for, for a while. Yeah. When Pemi search and rescue, um, was, um, birthed when Alan Clark had the great idea, which it was, and, um, convinced Todd Bogardus and others to listen that we had a group of people that were very willing to fill in the gap. And, uh, you know, we'd had the, the sad loss of Patrick down here in Lincoln and we'd

[01:48:57] had other search and rescue incidences that they could have used a professional or, you know, a volunteer team to fill the gap. And it was a need. Absar was there and mountain rescue services was there and upper Valley was there. Um, so we were kind of a lot of hikers and some climbers who were very much, um, we kind of affectionately called ourselves the grunts because we didn't know a whole lot, but we knew we loved to hike.

[01:49:25] We knew we wanted to give back to the community and we knew that it could be us out there that needs help. Uh, so we just, we started literally as the people that fishing game could count on to spend the night carrying someone out. And once Brian Abrams, who's, who's gone now, but was fishing game taught us how to do a proper line search along with Sam Sprague. Um, we became pretty good at that too.

[01:49:50] So the early years of PEMI were, um, a lot of fun, a lot of camaraderie. I'm really proud of that group. They've come so far from, uh, that ragtag group of the grunts that earned the respect of others and, uh, really loved what we did, um, to what they are now. They're doing everything, but, uh, you know, you, you've, um, I miss doing it. I can tell you that.

[01:50:18] But, uh, you hit a point in your life where you're like, it's time for, uh, you step away from it, but I'll always support. So, uh, yeah, when I was doing it, I did a few years under Gareth Slattery as captain. And then he, he said, we need a new captain. So I took it on. I think it was about five years. I did that as captain. So before PEMI even exists, so you touched on this a little bit. I know that there was, I don't know if Patrick, so Patrick McCarthy for the listeners, if you're

[01:50:47] not familiar, was a young, young boy. He was, I don't know, there was some kind of a, he was on vacation with his family and went missing by wheelback mountain and was found. Um, but it was like a three day search, I think. So I think that was one of the, the big searches that was just an ongoing and unfortunately at a sad ending, they found him, um, deceased. But I think that was one of the early searches that sort of, was that, was that ultimately what pushed, pushed everybody to say like, let's get organized. And that was a big part of it.

[01:51:17] And the other part was traditionally on, on this side of the mountains. Um, we were asking fire departments to fill in and, and, and I was on the life squad in Franconia as well. I remember being a, uh, part of Franconia, not state park at the time and also on the life squad. And, um, those of us on the life squad were asked to go in on a skookum chuck carryout and you end up out all night, but you don't have the resources.

[01:51:45] Uh, so once PEMI was established, it was, it really did fill the gap. I remember chatting with Rick Wilcox one day over at IME. He goes, Hey, you're on PEMI. I said, yeah, I am. He goes, well, I got to tell you, he goes, I don't, I don't mean anything by this, but we're awfully glad you guys are willing to do all those carryouts now. And I said, no, I hear you. We hear you. Right. So I think having the fire department like that is the worst case scenario because it

[01:52:12] takes people out of their ability to respond to the local. That's what even like it took, even up until like, what was it? Like six or seven years ago where Lakes region finally came out and that they were relying on the local fire department. So it does make a lot of sense. Yeah. It's so fantastic to know Lakes region is there and you see them, you know, there it's like there's a, there was a void down that way, the sandwich range. Um, and it's just really wonderful.

[01:52:40] We, we have these volunteer fire departments and ambulance services and they're just taxed and we can't refill them. But now we have search and rescue filling that gap. It's truly amazing community. So in this episode, we actually have an article where they interview with a local newspaper interviewed Alan Clark and they asked him like some of his, uh, his most memorable rescues. So we, we should just ask you the same question. Oh, let's see.

[01:53:09] Um, I think one of my most memorable rescues would have been, we were called out for a gentleman on Jefferson. So we're helping AFSAR and actually think Joe Lentini was on that, but this is a long time ago. So it was not, it was in August. It was really warm and humid. And, uh, we get up there. He had, if I remember right, he's a big guy tall and he, he broke his ankle severely.

[01:53:40] I mean, so the, some of the AFSAR folks and mountain rescue were setting up some spots where it's steep, they're setting up ropes. The rest of us were going up. Um, we were at the base of the cone, if I remember right. And we began our carry and, um, someone on, I can't remember who was in charge on fishing game that day, but, um, the guard, the national guard was in Afghanistan. If I remember that part, right.

[01:54:08] And they actually talked to Dart and, um, they set it up. We had no wind that day and we carried this guy down to an area where they could actually do a hot load and get Dart to take him. And, um, I think he just barely fit because, you know, very tall and they don't do that usually. So we got him in there and, um, he was on his way and we're like, wow, this is fantastic. You know, let's get going.

[01:54:38] So I get a phone call from Alan Clark. What are you doing? And me being smart, um, hiking, you know, of course. And he goes, no, you have a second one. They're like, all right, where is it? So we had a lady off of Garfield in between Garfield and Lafayette and she had broken her leg. So we gathered the crew up and headed up scoop, dropped down into Garfield, kind of into the rabbit hole in the dark, picked up more of our, our group that could make it for that one.

[01:55:07] And we spent the rest of the night carrying her up out of the, uh, call between the two mountains up to skook and back down skook. And by 4am. God bless you people. Oh yeah. Yeah. By 4am, uh, we were getting down low and, um, um, solo under, um, oh my goodness. His name is, I'll get his name in a second.

[01:55:32] Um, he brought his students up and, uh, helped us with the end of the carry out. And, uh, you know, you, you'll never forget some of those, some of those long nights with the amazing, amazing, uh, long night, but you're just going, you know, this is great. You know, you dead dog tired and, but you've, you've looked back on it and you're like, wow, what a trip, you know?

[01:56:00] And we just, the camaraderie of it all, I think that's probably what drove all of us in the early days. Right. Yeah. I think you're talking about Chris Beebe, right? I know. Um, wow. I can't, this is terrible. He'd, he'd be upset with me if he knew it. Oh, that's fine. I, um, I actually do, uh, you know, you probably listen a little bit. So I track all the media reports and I do pull together like those clusters, like you're talking about. Yeah. And they do happen.

[01:56:28] Like in 2022, there was like three days where there was three separate rescues that went on. Yeah. And then 2024, there was two days where you had like four, one day was four rescues. So they do, they do cluster together sometimes. Do a lot. Yeah. Yeah. The solo, we've had some people from solo on and they always say that they're like, we always know if we have a weekend class in the summer, there's going to be a call. Right. We're going to get some action. So. Right. I don't know. They just seem to know. Yeah. We were never so glad to see, see all of them as that last end of the night.

[01:56:58] We're like, yeah, thank you. And it wasn't even a mile left, but you know what? You're grateful. Yeah. But there were plenty of rescues that were, um, you know, you have the, the happy endings or it's just a, a night that just went well. And, and there's plenty of them. And this is where you really, uh, feel for the folks that are still doing it. You're really proud of them for doing it. And the ones that aren't such a happy ending are, are a little tougher because the outcome

[01:57:27] is not going to be that you're, that you're going to be able to bring someone back home. But, um, certainly, certainly really, um, support them. We really talk about search and rescue with our folks who come to visit at the flume and try to get that education out and help them understand what's going on out there and how they can be a part of taking care of themselves out there. Yeah.

[01:57:55] I mean, especially now, even since I've been sort of on the podcast and following a lot of these things like Mike does and I listened before, but it's amazing to think of a world sort of without Pemi when you read all these media reports with Pemi, sorry, kind of coming in and being involved. It's, it's pretty incredible to imagine that there just wasn't, it didn't exist. Not really that long ago. Yeah. It's, uh, yeah, it's, it's interesting to think back. I mean, time flies. So it's been a, it's been a bit now. Oh, and it's Bill Kane, by the way. I knew it would come to me. There it is.

[01:58:24] Don't tell him. I hope he doesn't listen. Oh, that's terrible. But yeah. Um, yeah, it hasn't been that when you think of the long history of mountain rescue, but, um, when you, when you look at how each group has formed and filled the gap and brought themselves up and, uh, and now, uh, even when can't mountain ski patrol, you know, we're, we're ski patrollers, but we're looking at it in the bigger picture now too.

[01:58:52] Um, and quite often we're on the phone with fishing game when we have a lost skier and, and I'm hoping eventually that will develop into, uh, more than just sending the rescuers out to, to, to be the only ones that have to be out there that, you know, we have capable skiers who ski the back country right on our patrol that, you know, we might save a whole lot of time and resources by being able to get going on that type of rescue.

[01:59:21] Um, we had one last year off of, uh, what's called bear, not bear, excuse me, off of the cannon area. And, um, so I'm sure in the future, we'll see more of that. Everyone's in the back country on their skis now too. So that should probably grow. Awesome. Well, Amy, you want to thank, we want to thank you first for your service too on PEMI for all those years. I'm sure there's many did some great work there. And, uh, thank you for your time again, kind of coming on and chatting.

[01:59:51] I'm, I love chatting about the flume gorge. I could talk about it for hours, so I'm not going to dive anymore, but, uh, thanks for filling us in and thanks for your time. My pleasure. And, and, you know, as part as a state park employee, um, we really hope people will come and visit it. Um, we didn't get to touch back on it, but you know, it is a place generations will come back. Um, I had a lady today who brought in a picture of her grandmother from 1925 who had visited the film. Oh, that a hundred years, over a hundred years ago. Yeah. Right.

[02:00:20] So you've got families now that are bringing, you know, they're bringing grandkids. So, um, it's great place, get them started, bring them over to the desk. We'll put them on a scavenger hunt to keep them occupied and get their eyes open. Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. So it's all. Yeah, no, it's perfect. When my kids were little, it was, it's actually, I mean, I did the rounds. I'd go to Lost River. I'd go to polar caves. I'd go to the flume gorge. We would go to, uh, you know, all those areas.

[02:00:49] And it actually is perfect, especially the little ones when they're old enough to walk. Cause you, the whole point of having these little kids, you got to tie these kids out. Yeah. Right. It's a perfect, like it's a two mile loop. And you've got like three or four different things. You get the pool and you've got all these different waterfalls and stuff like they're exhausted. Like, even if they're not working out that hard, like mentally, they're so overstimulated that those little, those little kids went right to napping and then we could get right to drinking when they're, there you go.

[02:01:18] So it's a very important service that you're, you're giving to parents that way. Yeah. We understand. There's a lot of parents who work there. It's like, we're going, yep. Been there, done that. Got to tire those little, good little ones out. Perfect. Right. So, but no, this is, this is great. And yeah, the, it's interesting history, the early days of the, of Pemi. Definitely probably want to have you on again to maybe talk about some of those early rescues in more detail. But we appreciate you.

[02:01:44] I know it's been a long day for you and it's, it's been great chatting and getting to learn a little bit about the flume. Well, thanks guys. I appreciate it too. And I'll keep listening to your show. Thank you. All right. Thank you, Amy. Thanks. Duke Duke. All right, Nick. Yeah. Amy's awesome. Like a wealth of knowledge and history and, and doing a cool, cool job over there at the Flume Gorge. So thank you for, for joining us. Yeah, we'll definitely have to have her back.

[02:02:12] I think for some future topics, Flume and maybe some search and rescue stuff. Nick, just to wrap this up here. So we've got some other search and rescue stories going back to June.

[02:02:43] As one thing I'll say, I'll start off with like a lot of people online are like, oh, search and rescue is out of control. And you know, we're spiking. I did do a tally, Nick, and I think the numbers are a little bit above average, but not much. So I think if people are saying like rescues are out of control, like not the case. Yeah. I mean, people are getting out there. Yeah. I was curious with this sort of, I sent you and stomped the screenshot from this week and it looked like a lot. I mean, it's more certainly, but apparently it's right in line with where we normally are. So.

[02:03:12] Very common. See the big spike in June, July, August. And then you'll see that September, October can be a mix, but yeah, you'll, you'll just see this big spike here. So I think that it's, it's pretty, pretty consistent. Yes. The thing about it though, is that it did the amount of time it takes for the rescue crews. Like Amy talked about like heavy carryouts of people that are larger. It can be difficult. Um, a couple of like long searches can blow through a budget.

[02:03:42] So not all rescues are the same. Yeah. All right. So I guess we'll start off here. This is kind of going back into June since it's been a bit, um, we've got carryout of injured hiker on the snapper trail. So this was back on June 20th. So, uh, Saturday, June 20th, just after 1230, uh, the rescue coordination center in Montgomery, Texas received an SOS alert. I was like, where are they going with Texas in here? But an SOS alert from Garmin in reach device.

[02:04:08] So no, no other information was available at that time, other than that the device had been activated on the snapper trail on Moose Lock. So snapper sort of connects back. Uh, if you're doing common thing, go up Gorge Brook, uh, go over Moose Lock to like the carriage road and you kind of loop back down snapper, a pretty common route over there. Um, so two New Hampshire fishing game COs responded at a ravine launch to determine if there was a need for rescue. Um, at 1 15 PM, the conservation officers met up with the owner of the in reach advice who advised that a 65 year old brother had suffered a lower leg injury as they descended

[02:04:37] to the snapper trail and he could not continue without assistance. Um, so the injured hiker was located about one mile up the trail from where they found his friend there, or I should say his brother. Um, and by 2 30 PM, the rescue party had started up the trail with a litter. Um, they arrived at the injured hiker and his injury was stabilized and he was secured in the litter for a carryout. Uh, 3 45 PM. They got back to ravine lodge. Um, he was, uh, the hiker was identified of as a resident of Scarborough, Maine.

[02:05:04] Um, the pair of hikers were very well prepared and were making their initial attempt at New Hampshire's 48, 4,000 footers. Um, and the hiker was taken by personal vehicle to Littleton regional hospital, uh, for his injury. So do you feel bad that that was sort of the, one of their maiden voyages to try to do the 48 and ended up with a leg injury? So hopefully it doesn't dissuade them too much, but that stinks. Yeah. Yeah. That's not great. Yeah. Especially prepared. So what do we, what do we got next year, Mike?

[02:05:32] Uh, so this one was, um, this one actually got a lot of chatter online. So this was a rescue of an 80 year old hiker from Canada that, um, needed a, uh, he had a medical emergency on, um, Mont Lincoln. I guess he was near the summit. So, um, he was hiking with his son. So the guy's 80 years old. He was hiking with his 45 year old son. Uh, they hiked up falling waters and then they were going across Franconia Ridge when he started having chest pains. 80 years old, Nick, going over Franconia Ridge.

[02:06:01] I guess that's impressive if you can make it, but if you can't, it's like he's 80 years old. What are you doing up there? Yeah. So, um, but anyway, the, the son rightly called 911 for help and fishing game conservation officers spoke with the hikers on phone and learned that, um, this, the 80 year old hiker could no longer continue due to his medical emergency. So after determining and it would be numerous hours for the rescuers to reach the hikers and many more hours of carrying them down the mountain, a call was made to New Hampshire

[02:06:29] army national guard to assist with the hoist of the incapacitated hiker. So a flight crew came in. So four o'clock the call came in and then they were able to get the flight crew dispatched and, um, over to Mount Lincoln just before 6 PM. So after arriving, the helicopter crew was able to lower a medic to the hikers and eventually hoist them to the helicopter. By 6 0 5, the helicopter was on route to Littleton regional hospital.

[02:06:56] So Andre or so the hiker could receive further medical treatment. So yeah, that's, um, I don't know, 80 year old hiker, Nick going up to Franconia Ridge sounds a little sketchy to me, but maybe he's a super athlete. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know if we, we're still hiking together by the time you're 80. I'm going to remind you of that. Seriously. But I'll be like, well, I'm different. I'm different. You're like, well, I have robot legs now. I'll be fine. Oh, let me think about this. How long will it be till I'm eat? I'll be 26. Yeah. I'll have a robot.

[02:07:25] I'll have a, like a, um, exoskeleton. Exoskeleton. So I'll bring you a power bank and you'll be good to go. That's good. Be all set. Oh my God. You can withhold my power, my power bank and leave me up there. Yeah. I mean, so you get a, you get a treat as nicely. That is true. You'll be 20 years younger than me, right? Uh, roughly. I think we're, so I'm 30, I'm going to be 36 and you're. 54. 54. So 19 years. Yeah. 19 years. So. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[02:07:54] So you'll be the spry 61 year old or whatever. I'll be like, oh, I know what you guys are talking about. Oh my back. Like, oh, my quadricep. Oh my God. Okay. All right. So next up we got, uh, on June 25th, injured hiker rescued from Valleyway. So Thursday, June 25th, approximately 2 45 PM fishing game was off notified of, uh, notified

[02:08:19] New Hampshire state police dispatch, excuse me here regarding an injured hiker on the Valleyway trail over in Randolph on the side of Madison. The injured hiker had slipped and fallen while hiking down the trail, suffered a serious leg injury. It occurred 1.6 miles up from Appalachia. So luckily not too far in that's probably like right around the junction where you branch off and you start climbing from where, uh, the river is over there. Um, so CO's and several volunteers from AvSAR respond to the call and hiked up to the trail.

[02:08:47] Hiker was identified as a 49 year old from Massachusetts. Um, he had been hiking with his kids when the accident occurred. So that's unfortunate. Um, earlier in the day, they summited Adams and John Quincy Adams and were on their way back down when the injury occurred. So it's always interesting. It gets you on that simpler terrain after they've been out in the boulder fields all day, it gets you right at the bottom there, which I mean, luckily for where you're going to fall, not the worst spot. Uh, it's better than up on Adams anyways. Um, so they put, uh, his leg injury in a vacuum splint. So that's kind of neat. Um, and then placed him in a litter.

[02:09:16] They carried him down the trail at 548 PM and arrived back at Appalachia at seven. Um, so pretty speedy there. So it was like mile and a half in an hour and 12 minutes. It's pretty quick. Um, so from there, uh, the hiker was placed in a gorm ambulance and transported to Androscoggin Valley hospital in Berlin for treatment. So pretty quick one there. Not, if you're going to fall, do it, I guess like a mile and a half out on the trail where they can get into you. That's right. That's right. All right, Nick. Uh, this next one here is falling waters trail. So Pennsylvania guy.

[02:09:46] So this was, this call came in on Thursday, the 25th, around 430 or so. Um, hiker suffered injuries from a fall in the area of Cloudland falls on the falling waters trail. So this guy had already come over across the, he had come up old bridal and come across the ridge and was making his way down to falling waters. And, um, call in came in around 430. The first rescuer started up the trail with a litter around five. They got to him around 540. So not bad about an hour or so.

[02:10:16] And then they, uh, they, they secured the hiker in a litter and then the team started moving them down around 6 PM. Took about a mile. So they got him out at around seven o'clock or so, put him in an ambulance and he was off on his way to Littleton regional for further evaluation. 42 year old hiker from Pennsylvania had hiked across the ridge up old bridal and across and was descending falling waters when the incident happened. Said he slipped and fell on the wet, slippery rock. So yeah, it's tough there. You gotta have good footing for sure.

[02:10:45] And I think that like at the end of a hike coming down falling water, I like going that way. Honestly, like I just liked that view better coming across the ridge, but you know, you do need to pay attention coming down. So old bridal's a nice one to finish on now cause it's got all those fancy steps, but falling waters are still dangerous. Yeah. I've, uh, yet to go down that way and I don't know, see if it happens before, uh, I think by the fall they're shooting to get the relocation in over there. So I bet you the conservation office will open sooner rather than later.

[02:11:13] So yeah, I, as much as I love how it goes through there, I definitely feel for our friends, uh, that we have that help rescue people up there. So I'm yeah, hopefully it'll make it much better there and there'll be less. Right. So a little bit later, uh, we had Saturday, June 27th. Um, this was an injured hiker rescued on cascade, broke trail in Lincoln. So approximately 11 15 AM fishing game was notified of an injured hiker on cascade, brook trail in Lincoln who slipped on a rock and suffered a lower leg injury.

[02:11:40] So sort of similar scenario, uh, fishing game responded to the scene while a call was made to the Pemi Valley search and rescue team to assist with the injured hiker, um, upper Valley search and rescue team members were also in the area and were able to assist as well. So the rescue has started up cascade, broke trail and located the injured hiker one and a half miles up the trail. Um, around 1 PM, he was identified as a 58 year old from North Danville, Vermont. Rescuers were able to aid the hiker and his lower leg injury and loaded, loaded him onto a litter to be carried down cascade, brook trail.

[02:12:10] Um, at approximately 3 PM, they safely carried the hiker out to the trailhead. Um, Linwood ambulance did evaluate him at the scene, but the hiker denied transport and drove himself home to seek further medical aid. So another slip and fall there with the, I know New Hampshire has kind of had a lot of rain and wet weather, um, lately. So it seems to be a common theme. Right. Yeah. And then, uh, Nick, this next one, unfortunately, this is a hiker fatality that happened on Mount Major. So this was on Thursday, July 2nd.

[02:12:39] Um, 68 year old New Hampshire resident had been hiking on his own and was able to place a call to 911, but stopped communicating with the dispatcher. He was about a mile from the trailhead. So hikers came upon him a short while later, attempted CPR. Um, and then along with fish and game conservation officers, Alton fire department, police department, Gilmanton fire department, uh, the fire personnel attempted additional life-saving procedures, but unfortunately the hiker succumbed to his conditions. No further details.

[02:13:08] And, and the hiker's name is being withheld pending notification of the family. So that's a, um, sad story. I'm a major for the family, the hiker, and obviously like the, the first responders and then everybody else, the good Samaritans that came by as well. So sad, sad 4th of July for that family. Yeah. Uh, condolences to the family. Never like to hear about those. Nope. Um, okay. So moving on to the 4th, uh, July 4th, we have an injured, it's funny, the title on this one fishing game.

[02:13:36] I think they were just getting tired of writing the articles, but it's just injured hiker, um, understandably over here. Uh, so Saturday, July 4th, we had one like this, not that long ago. I feel like Mike, or maybe it was like even last fall, but July 4th, 2 PM, uh, fishing game got notified that a woman had injured her knee at Diana's baths and was unable to walk out her own. Um, she was identified as a 51 year old from Auburn, Massachusetts. Um, so the CO is along with, uh, members of the Bartlett Jackson fire department, um,

[02:14:02] responded, uh, fire and ambulance personnel were able to use a side-by-side, uh, ATV on the path until they reached a bridge that is too narrow for any vehicle to cross. And then they carried a litter to her location. Um, they treated her injury, put her in the litter, um, and carried her back in the side by side and transported onto the trail hit around 4 PM, uh, where the, uh, the affected person left with their family. So, um, they do just call out that, uh, Bartlett Jackson ambulance and Bartlett fire department

[02:14:27] accept tax deductible donations, uh, to fund the rescue operations and, uh, just encourages people for the hike safe. I feel like we saw one of these not too long ago where it was like someone at Diana's bath had a slip and fall and they had to get like hiked out like that. Yeah. There was one last year with the lady, like, um, she slipped and fell and then she posted on like Facebook, like, Oh, that's what it was. Um, it was like a silly thing. Like, you know, you know, Oh, I went for a hike and then she was like posting a selfie from the litter and stuff. It was kind of ridiculous. It's like, that's what I was thinking of. Yeah.

[02:14:57] Lady, everybody's allowed here. Like they want to have dinner with their families. They're out there rescuing you. You're taking selfies from, it was ridiculous. So anyway, um, but this next one, so multiple injured hikers here. So, uh, 4th of July around, um, 11, 15 AM fishing game, we're notified of an injured hiker on Georgiana Falls trail. And I'll talk about this one with you and Nick for a second. And Lincoln, he slipped on a rock and suffered a lower leg injury. Conservation officers responded to the scene.

[02:15:26] Um, well, a call was made to Pemi Valley search and rescue to assist. Rescuers started hiking up Georgiana Falls trail and located the hiker at approximately 12, 15. And I was a 16 year old from Westboro, Mass. Rescuers were able to render aid to the miner's injury and load him into a litter to be carried down at 1, 53. Rescuers safely carried the miner out to the trailhead and Linwood Ambulance evaluated the hiker on the scene and he was taken to, uh, by his parents further.

[02:15:53] So Georgiana Falls, Nick, I've noticed on social media has become very popular. That picture of the swimming pool at the very top that looks down into Indian head has become like very popular online. So I'm wondering if we're going to see more activity up there. Yeah. It seems like for whatever reason it's taken off, I have a picture of you standing in that exact spot from like, I think we were up there almost a year, a little over a year ago. Yeah. When we did the training for trail meetings. Yeah, that's right. I was trying to think we're near there. So we hit it, but yeah, I mean that it is beautiful in there.

[02:16:22] The caveat I'll say is like, it isn't, it's a trail, I guess, technically that goes up there, but a lot of it's like sort of washed out and eroded. You kind of, kind of find the road and actually you can keep going. Like we went up even further past where that pool is and saw like, there's still more falls past that, but it is sort of like this waterfall in a Canyon. There's a lot of holes and stuff in there. You got to be careful. Um, especially if it's wet and stuff in there, it's not like going to like Diana's baths or something. It's a totally different experience than hiking to something like that. So do you want to give people a heads up?

[02:16:52] It's like a 900 foot climb. I think. Yeah. It's probably, yeah. If you're going to like the very top to where the falls go, I want to say it's about a thousand feet, 900 feet foot climb. So by no means is it like, what I say it's dangerous, but like, just be aware. It's not like you're well beaten, uh, sort of Diana's baths type experience to get to like swimming holes and stuff. And you got to definitely like that swimming hole. I could see like going in there, but there's spots a hundred percent in there where you would not want to go swimming. Like you could really, uh, quite literally drop like 40 feet over a waterfall or cascade.

[02:17:21] So yeah. Be careful. Anyway. But yeah, Georgiana falls definitely like a great spot, but, um, it's, it's gonna, the kids have found out about it, I think is the problem. So, um, all right. And then, uh, same time around two 45, another call comes into New Hampshire fishing. And we just talked about this with Amy is like these multiple rescues that happened. So this is a basin cascade trail in Lincoln. Uh, lady was walking her dog, got her foot caught under a root falling backwards, hitting the ground.

[02:17:49] Conservation officers responded to the scene while a call was made to Pemi Valley search and rescue to assist with the injured hiker. Rescue was started hiking up the basin cascade trail and located the hiker at around three 30. Uh, local resident rescues are able to render aid for the lower body injury and loaded and will literally be carried down to the, um, the trailhead. So by five 50, the rescues had safely carried her out of the, uh, the, the trail to, uh,

[02:18:15] the ambulance service and they evaluated her for, uh, for medical attention. So that's it. Heck we have, let me see on this episode, we had covered one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 media reports over the last, uh, two and a half weeks or so. Yeah. One thing I, not, I'm glad for the search and rescue folks, but I'm surprised we didn't see any sort of heat exhaustion related injuries with the amount of people like I saw out there

[02:18:42] on the third, like it wasn't insanely hot, but, uh, I was impressed to see how many people were headed up at like 1231 o'clock up, up the Osceola's that day, knowing how warm it was going to be. Like it was, it was hot and brutally humid. So I'm glad we didn't see much of that. Yeah. I'm happy to, um, say goodbye to the, the hot weather for now. So we'll see if it comes back, but, but anyway, I'll, and speaking of saying goodbye, Nick, I think it's time to say goodbye. All right. Bye Mike. Okay. Until next time.

[02:19:16] Thank you for listening. Podbean, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you want to learn more about the topics covered in today's show, please check out the show notes and safety information at slasherpodcast.com. That's S L A S R podcast.com. You can also follow the show on Facebook and Instagram.

[02:19:46] We hope you'll join us next week for another great show until then on behalf of Mike and Stump, get out there and crush some mega heats. Now covered in scratches, blisters, and bug bites, Chris staff wanted to complete his most challenging day hike ever. Fish and game officers say the hiker from Florida activated an emergency beacon yesterday morning. He was hiking along the Appalachian trail when the weather started to get worse.

[02:20:16] Officials say the snow was piled up to three feet in some spots and there was a wind chill of minus one degree. And there's three words to describe this race. Do we all know what they are? Holy! Lieutenant James Neeland from New Hampshire Fish and Game. Lieutenant, thanks for being with us today. Thanks for having me. What are some of the most common mistakes you see people make when they're heading out on the trails to hike here in New Hampshire? Seems to me the most common is being unprepared.

[02:20:43] I think if they just simply visited hikesafe.com and got a list of the 10 essential items and had those in their packs, they probably would have no need to ever call us at all. We'll be right back.