[00:00:08] Here is the latest Higher Summits forecast brought to you by our friends at the Mount Washington Observatory. Weather above treeline in the White Mountains is often wildly different than at our trailheads. Before you hike, check the Higher Summits forecast at mountwashington.org.

[00:00:31] Weather observers working at the non-profit Mount Washington Observatory write this elevation-based forecast every morning and afternoon. Search and Rescue teams, avalanche experts, and backcountry guides all rely on the Higher Summits forecast to anticipate weather conditions above treeline.

[00:00:51] You should too. Go to mountwashington.org or text FORECAST to 603-356-2137. Hello listeners, Nick here with your forecast for the weekend of November 14th, 2026. Friday, mostly in the clouds, trending towards in and out of the clouds under mostly cloudy skies.

[00:01:20] Morning snow tapering to isolated snow showers by midday. Possible additional snow accumulations are traced to 1 inch. High in the lower 20s, wind northeast shifting north at 20-35 mph early, increasing to 25-40 mph with gusts up to 50 mph early. Wind chill rising 0-10 above.

[00:01:55] And Saturday, in the clouds with a chance of snow showers, particularly in the afternoon. Possible additional snow accumulations of a trace to 2 inches. High in the upper teens, wind northwest at 30-45 mph with gusts up to 55 mph. And wind chill 0-10 below. So old man winter, coming back up high and onto the rock pile. Stay safe out there. Hope you can go across some peaks. Enjoy.

[00:02:53] Broadcasting from the Woodpecker Studio in the live free or die state of New Hampshire. Welcome to the Sounds Like a Search and Rescue podcast. Where we discuss all things related to hiking and search and rescue in the White Mountains of New Hampshire. Occasionally including the counties of Belknap. I mean, Belknap. Um, something like that.

[00:03:19] And Coos County? Wait, or is it Coos County? Whatever! Here are your hosts, Mike, Nick, and Stomp. Welcome to episode 253. We have the Stomp Man with us. He's back. Yeah, you dragged me back. I dragged you back. I'm kicking and screaming. Seven out of eleven episodes you've been back, I think. I'm trying to get ready for next weekend. I just made that up.

[00:03:49] But I'm guessing so. Yep. Anyway, Nick's here. Nick just, Nick did the family trip to Acadia. So, I think, I don't know, Stomp, have you, I've been to Acadia like once a long time ago. It's almost criminal that I haven't gone, but Nick, some good videos and stuff. The weather was kind of mixed, but you had a good time, huh? Yeah, we made the most, it was pretty wet. It rained most of the time we were there. It kind of cleared up finally on Sunday and Monday morning wasn't too bad. But yeah, it was beautiful.

[00:04:17] I mean, it cleared up enough where we got to see everything, got some views. And yeah, it was fun. It was challenging, but it was really fun and definitely would recommend checking it out to anybody. Yeah, yeah. I feel like we'll touch on it, but we should do a So You Wanna, Acadia, Nick. I feel like we'll do it right. Yeah, that's a good idea. We have a lot of friends that have been there too that I think could contribute equally and probably more than what I've done. Yeah, I think that's fair. All right. So, welcome to episode 253 of the Sounds Like a Search and Rescue podcast.

[00:04:45] So, this week we are joined by Jason Moon. So, Jason is the host of the groundbreaking true crime podcast, Barebrook. So, we're going to talk about mostly about season three of Bear Brook, but we'll talk a little bit about the overall podcast. And then there's some search and rescue aspects to this particular season of Barebrook that we thought would be interesting for the listeners. So, Jason was kind enough to sit down with us to talk about that. So, we'll highlight him. This is going to be a shorter show this week, guys.

[00:05:12] So, we'll get right to Jason as soon as we can, but we'll have a few things before him. But this will be a little bit shorter than our normal show, I think. Do you think we can actually do that, Nick? I don't know. I've heard that many times and that it always ends up being around the two-hour mark. But I think it will be generally a bit shorter considering what we have lined up tonight. Exactly. All right. Let's get started!

[00:05:44] So, in way of introduction here, so we've got just a reminder of upcoming events. So, we've got on Saturday, November 21st, we've got the annual Reckless Brewing Full Conditions event featuring the Slasher crew. We'll have Ty Gagne there. It's going to be at the Bethlehem Colonial Theater. So, the doors open at 4 o'clock. Nick is going to be doing a live music gig from 4 to 4.30. And then Stomp is going to be spinning Tasty Beats from 4.30 to 5. Tasty Beats? Yeah.

[00:06:16] What do you think in Stomp? Is it going to be EDM Stomp or what kind of music? It's definitely what I do the best and what I enjoy the most. So, lately I've been doing a lot of mixed genre. Like I did this Halloween Party, which was a lot of just very popular music that people will recognize. You may not recognize these tracks, but they're very interesting to listen to. And there may be one or two tracks that you'll be familiar with. But it should be good.

[00:06:45] Uplifting, beautiful stuff. Okay. At the Reckless Halloween Party, did you do some kind of a cool spin on Thriller? I did. Yeah, I played Steve Aoki's remix of... Oh, you did? Well, here's what I did. I took his remix, but I was listening to the Michael Jackson version and where the end hits and you've got the monologue going on.

[00:07:14] I faded his track out and brought the old classic in so that people could hear the original and the final... All that stuff. Yeah, man, it was great. A lot of fun. I snuck in a lot of Halloween tunes in there, but they were more modern and sort of remixes. Yeah. Yeah, that's... Good time. I would have liked to have gone to that. It was a good time though. You guys had a good crowd? A couple hundred people. They were all dressed to the hilt. I mean, it was insane.

[00:07:44] What a great time. Yeah. That was really... Yeah, it was loud as hell. I bet. I think my ears are still ringing. You should hold that... You should put that mix out if you have it. You should put it out on the feed. Oh, no, I don't have that one. It was just... It was like literally three and a half hours long. It was just too much, but... Too much, yeah. Yeah. But I'll definitely capture full conditions. Next time.

[00:08:14] Yeah. Yeah, that'll be good. So yeah, so full conditions, Saturday, November 21st. Doors open at four. Nick and Stomp are going to be entertaining from four to five. I'll be doing nothing. And then we'll be previewing the movie My Ride or Die. Kate Ziliff will be there. Ty Gagne, Lieutenant James Nealon, Joe Roman of AMC Paw Rescue. Got some other special guests that we'll announce closer to the event. There are still some tickets available. We're almost sold out, right? Stomp are getting an ankle.

[00:08:43] Yeah, so last year it sold out the week before the show and they're down to about 50 tickets left. So it's going pretty quick. Yeah. It's limited. And there is a donation goal for this year. So as part of this, you can donate and then we'll have fundraisers and all kinds of fun stuff to donate. So we're looking to raise up to $20,000 for the New Hampshire Outdoor Council. So anything that you can donate will be appreciated and we'll include all the details in the show notes.

[00:09:11] And then we also had this week, we had the Rescue Me 5K Stomp, which it looked like there was a huge crowd there. You and Dave got out there and you were DJing and hosting. Did you sing the national anthem? That was the big question. No, I didn't actually. I felt it would be nice to mix it up a little bit. And that song terrifies me. So I found, I was looking around, I actually approached the woman that sings the Mount Washington Road Race and she was, she had an obligation.

[00:09:36] And there was a young woman named Zoe Rose who works for adaptive sports in Waterville Valley. And she's like, she does all kinds of stuff. So she sang and she did a great job. And yeah, yeah, it was good. It was good. Awesome. That's great. And then, but good day overall, you and Dave had a good time. Yeah. I mean, they had 451 runners. It was fully tracked.

[00:10:03] They have all the raffles after upstairs at Base Camp Brewing. Yeah, it was an amazing time. It was smooth. No, no hiccups or anything like that. So yeah, incredible. It's really amazing to see how much it's grown. This is like their fifth year. It was seventh. Seventh. Yeah. Wow. Seven. We're getting old. Time's flying. It is. It is. It is. Awesome. All right.

[00:10:26] And then we also wanted to plug, there's a, an event at Base Camp Brewery. So for people that aren't familiar with Base Camp, so this is in Lincoln. This is right on 112 in Lincoln, kind of across from the Mountain Wanderer bookstore. So this event is actually sponsored by Mountain Wanderer, Burgen and Base Camp Brewing. So Burgen's like in the same building as Base Camp and then across the street is Mountain Wanderer.

[00:10:52] So Michael Whittlemore is the author of Ecology of New Hampshire's 4,000-Footer Mountains. So he's going to be presenting and signing his book on December 12th at 7 p.m. at Base Camp. So I may try to make this. So December 12th, I can't see what day that is. Hold on.

[00:11:21] So professional, huh, Nick? Yeah, you're going to have to edit this out. I can't see. It's a December 12th is a Saturday. When you say edit this out, a lot of times it just makes me not want to edit it out more. Yeah, I know. I can't see. I'm at that age in my life, Nick, where I have to like use my cell phone light to read the menu when I go out to eat. It's getting too dark, huh? It has nothing to do with your eyes. Yeah, it's too dark. So anyway, but anyway, Michael Whittlemore, author of The Ecology of New Hampshire's 4,000-Footer Mountains.

[00:11:50] I want to get this book. He will be presenting and signing on Saturday, December 12th at 7 p.m. Next time we put an event in here, put the day it's on, boys. December 12th. 7 p.m. I remember we were plugging this on at the event, the Rescue Me. Right. Actually, you know what one of the raffles was, they had a proof copy, signed proof copy of the book. So that was one of the raffles. Wasn't even released yet. Awesome. Well, I'll look forward to that.

[00:12:45] We've got a couple of search and rescue news stories here, and then we've got the wildfire news story. So two hikers were rescued on Mount Washington. This one's a little scary, huh? They got, it was on Tuesday, November 3rd, around 5 p.m. Two 18-year-olds from Rochester, New York, called from Lakes of the Cloud Hut in need of assistance.

[00:13:09] They were speaking with the 911, and it was learned that the two were not prepared for their hike. They did not have lights. So they were directed to the dungeon. That's the last place I want to be without, with no lights. Can you imagine being in there with no lights the whole night? Forget it. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Who directed them? I guess the, I don't know, whoever they talked to on the phone. So they called 911 at 5 o'clock. Okay.

[00:13:37] Lights are going down and they were basically told, I don't know what the weather conditions were. It doesn't really say in the, but it was probably not great. They were directed to the emergency shelter at the hut, which I'm assuming is that dungeon, which is the little door underneath. Usually that thing's kind of frozen over. You can't get in there. Have you guys been in there before? I've been in there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I put on my snow shoes in there once or took, I should say. I mean, it's early season. Yeah. You could, you could probably get in there now, but yeah. Usually it gets iced over. Yeah.

[00:14:05] So, but anyway, it was enough for them. Like the, the, so fishing game got the call and decided to activate a rescue. So Anderscoggin Valley search and rescue and conservation officers began hiking up the hut, um, around seven 15. So it took them about two hours to mobilize. And then they got up there at around nine 15 and they got them warmed up. They provided them with food lights and extra clothing. And around 10 o'clock, they left the hut and started climbing down, got back around one 45.

[00:14:35] A.M. So, but I can imagine like having no lights and being, I guess if the weather was warmer, they might've told them to just, you know, crash in the dungeon and then come, come out the next day, but it didn't sound like they had enough gear for that. Yeah. Well, either way, it was a good call because they were out of the wind. Right. It's going to take hours for them to get there. So yeah, it made sense. Right. They're going to be in the pitch black no matter what. So, but it's just a little scary. I mean, that's just a horror movie being stuck down there with no lights. So maybe they have this. One of those situations you feel like someone put their hand on your shoulder or something

[00:15:04] in the dark and it's like a ghost hiker, the lakes of the clouds or something. I don't know. I mean, there's gotta be like rope and mice and stuff in there. There has to be. I don't know. This time of year probably. It's pretty cold. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Who knows? Snakes. I've like ducked my head in there once or twice early season, but like I would not guide in nothing that both that looked appealing. I'd have to be pretty cold before I considered slamming myself in there. Right. Right.

[00:15:33] So anyway, two 18 year olds, they learned their lesson. They had a good life experience. If I did that and I made the news, my parents would like scalp me. That would be it. That would be it. Yeah. Um, and then this next one here, let me see. Huntington ravine trail. So this was on Saturday. A fishing game was notified of five hikers that was stranded on a steep section of the

[00:16:00] Huntington ravine trail and heavy rain and low visibility and could not continue down. So that's interesting. Hmm. Yeah. No, um, Stomp, did it rain a bunch early in the morning or did it kind of, how did New Hampshire get hit by the rain? Like where we were down east, they like dumped like it. I think it rained between three and four inches over like three or four days. But did New Hampshire get a lot for the 5k in that time span or what did the weekend look like? It was just drizzly.

[00:16:29] I mean, you know, actually it was drizzly overnight, but surprisingly it sort of cleared up pretty well. Little, little passing, passing things came through, but that was more like 10 ish to 11, uh, just before the race. And then it cleared up really nice. It was a weird day. We know Mount Washington makes its own weather too, especially on days like days like that. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this one came in again.

[00:16:59] This is another one, five o'clock on a Saturday. So it's, I don't know. I mean, it sounds like they were going down this. It's down Huntington ravine. I'm not sure. I mean, I can't imagine they start, maybe they started late and were climbing up and wanted to turn back around, but essentially they called it five rains coming in. Um, fishing game decided to, I guess, initiate a rescue with the Appalachian mountain club members and Andrews, and the understriken Valley search and rescue, um, within fishing game conservation officers.

[00:17:27] So take, it took a while to get there. Um, so by seven 45, the majority of, um, the crew, actually all the whole crew was actually able to self rescue. They did make it down the majority of the, the steeper, um, technical part and met up with an AMC hot caretaker around seven 45, who would come over from Hermit Lake and was the first rescuer on scene. So those Hermit Lake people, they can get over there pretty quickly.

[00:17:55] Um, none of the hikers were injured in the AMC caretaker take a guided them down the rest of Huntington ravine trail. And then the caretaker returned to Hermit Lake while the hikers continued down Tuckerman ravine to pink them notch. Uh, a bunch of 20 something year old hikers from New York. One, one, one guy from Malden, one guy from Cranston, Rhode Island. So, um, and they all had quality hiking and climbing gear, including ropes, crampons, micro spikes, helmets, and multiple warm lists. So maybe they will rock climbing and they just got hung up.

[00:18:25] Well, all's well that ends well there. Stay away from Huntington ravine this time of the year, folks. Yeah, they must've been. Yeah. I feel like most hikers aren't carrying ropes and crampons on this time of year. So I would think it was probably. Yeah. Climbers are people that intended to maybe check out the ravine and maybe climb if they could and not climb if they couldn't. Yeah, exactly. Uh, so, okay, good, good. They had an experience. And then last but not least here, we got the wildfire in Evans notch.

[00:18:54] So, uh, it sounds like it's more than half contained. This did thing, this widened out to about a thousand acres total. Um, right now the latest report we have is it's 53% cumpet. It's contained. And then, um, so this was started on the afternoon of November 1st and it's been going ever since the, um, I guess the numbers are 88 personnel were battling the fire down from more than 140 at the, at the highest point. There is an enclosure order. That's still in effect as of Tuesday.

[00:19:24] Uh, I think the, like, um, Mariah Shelburne trail and some other trails in that Evans notch area that we talked about last week are, um, closed. This fire was believed to be caused by humans, which is interesting. I don't think that we had confirmation on that. So, uh, but hopefully protect Evans notch, Nick, hopefully it doesn't burn too deeply. Yeah. Hopefully I, it sounds like some of the rain does help to sort of contain it a little bit. Um, and there don't have as many people on it as they did earlier in the week.

[00:19:51] I believe they said too, that this is actually the largest wildfire, um, in terms of acreage since the white mountain national forest was established. So historic in a not fantastic way. Um, but hopefully, uh, kind of dwindling down and it'll, it'll be out soon. And we'll have those trails open. Imagine it's going to be probably a scar in that landscape for a very long time. Now you're going to be able to tell that, that, uh, burned out. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:17] Hopefully this is not a sign of, um, future fires, but I think we're kind of the windows closing on, on forest fires pretty quick. Yes. All right. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see what the, um, the investigation reveals. Yeah. It sounds like they got a meeting in one of the local town halls coming up to sort of answer sort of information. Um, or I should say to be informational and to answer people's questions, but I wonder

[00:20:45] if they're sort of looking to see if anybody has any more details of what went on there. Cause it's only so many hikers that go in and out of that area this time of year. And, uh, so many people that are in that area. It's again, like you, I mean, like you, Mike, you've never been in there. I've never been there. You ever been in the wild river stomp? No. Yeah. It's so, it's not very popular. So I'm going to get over there, buddy. I definitely have to get over there.

[00:21:11] So I'll report in the spring, Nick, when I get over there, but moving on to national content here. So there's rat poison has been discovered on the continental divide trail. So, um, hikers are being warned to stay away from rat poisoning. And in particular, their dogs don't ingest the, uh, the, the rat poisoning. So the first incident occurred on October 6th, when an individual reported finding a small quantity. This is from the Trek, an article of, um, it says CDT trail towns warn hikers of suspected rat.

[00:21:41] Stomp, why do you think that somebody's dropping rat poison on hiking trails? What could possibly be going through somebody's mind here? Makes no sense. I don't even want to know at this point. I'm wondering if people like a taking it to like, leave in shelters or something. Yeah. Who knows? Maybe it's so weird. Yeah. Apparently. Don't even want to know. Yeah. So this was in the town of Helena, Montana.

[00:22:11] Um, and apparently they're finding a sort of little rat poison pills in the area. Um, just kind of warning, warning people, uh, if you've got dogs are out there or small children not to eat them. Um, but yeah, it seems kind of, it definitely is like a malintent type of thing. I can't imagine someone just going around and be like, there's too many rats around here. Like kind of leaving that. So it's just strange story. You guys ever get mice in your house? Yes. Well, every once in a while I get a mouse in my house and it's like the end of the world.

[00:22:40] Mrs. Mike loses her goddamn mind. I bet. Yeah. I don't blame her. It's nasty. My qualifier is growing up. We had mice in our house quite a bit. And since I've had cats, we've never, I think we had a mouse in North Providence once that our cat caught when she was a kitten. Um, and actually funny story. I walked in the kitchen and I thought it was like a toy mouse she was playing with. I was like, and I went to pick it up and throw it to her cause she actually used to fetch down the stairs. I'm like, Oh, that's a real mouse. That is not, that's, that is not a toy mouse.

[00:23:09] Um, and there's no blood. So I don't know if the poor thing, like it's a little heart exploded when she was playing with it or what, but, uh, we've never had mice, uh, in our houses with cats, but growing up, it seemed like this time of year they would just get inside and like, they try to get in like a cabinet and like eat stuff and they make a mess. It's just a pain in the butt and you end up putting out glue traps with peanut butter or something like that. Yeah. It's been many years. I haven't had one in a long time, but I remember we would get them every once in a while. I finally had a, like an exterminator guy come in and like, he put the, the metal, um, stop.

[00:23:39] He plugged up the holes with like metal wire or whatever. Scrubby kind of deal. So it doesn't take much for them to get in much. No, they just, they can get through any tiny slivers, but it's gross. But anyway, um, just watch out for rat poisoning. If you happen to be on the continental divide trail, and if you happen to be hiking in British Columbia, look out for grizzly bears. This is a sad one here, Nick. Yeah, this is a unfortunate. So it was two hikers dead in a bear attack in British Columbia, um, leaving officials to look for answers.

[00:24:06] So it sounds like they're actually looking to try to capture and I imagine euthanize this bear now. Um, and it sounds like there were deaths, um, and sort of a similar incident just about a year ago. Um, so this was out on the indigenous lands in British Columbia year ago. There were four people left seriously injured. And unfortunately this was two fatalities. One of the bodies was discovered November 2nd near the snuka West trail and Bella coola. Um, and then they led to the search for a second. Um, and they found the second victim also dead.

[00:24:37] The BC conservation conservation officers, the BCCOS, that's a fun acronym. Um, believe both were attacked by a grizzly bear. Um, and the efforts are ongoing to locate and trap any bears in the area, um, to assess them, imagining assessing if they look like they killed somebody. I don't, I don't, I don't know exactly what they look for if they're aggressive or whatever. Um, and unfortunately the pair was identified as a 40 year old Jennifer Belcaris and her daughter, 20 year old Sarah, uh, 20 year old Sela Reed.

[00:25:06] So a, uh, mother and daughter. So very sad situation there. Um, and they basically go on to say, uh, that, uh, that, uh, they're not going to that. Yeah. If the, if the captured bear is assessed and it's determined to have been involved in attack that they will be dispatched. Yeah. It's really like rock in this area because the police are now like escorting local children to school after this attack. Um, so officers will be escorting students from the school bus, conducting night patrols

[00:25:33] and, um, providing voluntary rides for young ones. If they're out at night and need a safe walk home, there's a curfew in place. Um, which, so wildlife officials are like searching for these beers. So it's a little, um, a little unnerving that they're sort of this close to, I guess, like population areas. Yeah. And one of the British Columbia conservation officers had mentioned that it's extremely rare for grizzly bears to go after.

[00:26:01] Um, they said number one, the year ago where it was four people. Um, usually they don't tend to go after groups of people and it's also kind of unusual for them to go after even a group of two people. Um, it's kind of a really rare instance. So they also kind of are trying to understand why this grizzly or these grizzlies in particular are more daring and more bold than, um, the typical thing they see with a species. Yeah. So say a sad story there. I mean, it's beautiful area, but it is, it's dangerous with the grizzlies in there.

[00:26:29] Oh, Gary, maybe they're eating rat poison. Yeah. It could be, we'll leave some rat poison out on the trail. You need a lot of rat poison. Going a little crazy. I think that they would think that this is a nice tasty snack. It's a Dorito. Yeah. Ready for slashers. All right.

[00:27:01] So then we've got a little bit of gear talk here. So, um, just Nick was out in Acadia and we'll do a deeper dive on that and probably do a dedicated episode, but, um, you did have a chance to sort of, um, use some rain gear. What was your findings, Nick? Yeah. Yeah. So, um, we've shouted out this before and Mike's a giant and fan. Um, but just wanted to shout out umbrellas. Um, I linked, these are actually golf umbrellas. So one of the umbrellas I have is a golf umbrella. I have from what I golfed more. Um, it's big enough. I think it's like a 62 inch umbrella.

[00:27:29] So it's big enough to fit like two people underneath it. Um, and I actually picked up an extra one from the same brand before we went, when I saw the forecast and how rainy it was supposed to be. Um, so it worked out that I kind of had an umbrella on me that I could keep over me and my son on my back. And then, uh, my wife, Ash had one that she could kind of keep over her and Rylan. Um, the one difficulty, which leads to the next thing, um, with having a four year old that likes to explore and sort of run around and was super excited is that, um, she'd frankly

[00:27:56] Lee go outside the perimeter of the umbrella and also get wet. So I, as a last minute idea, I figured I'd pick up some ponchos. Um, and I figured, I don't know how useful to be for me and Ash. I'm like, I carry disposable ponchos. Sometimes if I've gone out to like water, like photograph waterfalls in the rain, I know you're just going to get soaked, but, um, the disposable ponchos we got, which were like nine bucks. It was a family set. Like those worked super well for Rylan. So like her age of running around and stuff. And we also could like tie it up to tighten it.

[00:28:24] Um, they lasted pretty well on the second hike we did when we did Pometic mountain. She kind of ripped it up doing a little scrambling. We had to tie it up, but it lasted for the amount that it rained. Um, so we kind of, I don't like to like just get plastic and there's obviously feelings on that in the environment. It's not great. I get it's like a disposable thing. It's not the greatest, but if you need to keep your kid dry and warm, um, the disposable ponchos to me were absolutely priceless. They were worth every penny to say the least. Um, and then lastly, I just wanted to shout out and I've shouted out this a few times on

[00:28:54] the podcast as well, but the Osprey Poco child carrier, um, granted the fact that they're, I think they're probably a hundred or 200 more dollars. I mean, my memory is a little foggy on when we bought it. It was almost five years ago now that we bought that backpack. But, um, this thing was awesome at keeping my son dry between an umbrella and that thing on, they have like sort of a pop out. Like, um, it's, it's sort of a sunshade, but it's also waterproof. It functions as sort of a rain cover for him and where you actually put your kid in the backpack where he strapped in. He was like bone dry.

[00:29:24] Like I was amazed. We were walking on the road cause we, uh, kind of did a car spot on a hike on Saturday. So, um, Ash and Rylan were sort of hanging out under a little like canopy area under a building to stay dry while it poured. We were walking on the side of the road in like wind and rain. Um, in between the umbrella and that carrier, he was completely dry. Like all of us were like drowned rats and he was fine. So I'm like, I was, I was pleasantly surprised. I'm like, he's must be soaked right now. Um, but it worked really well.

[00:29:52] And so even though I guess the moral of the story is though, even though those things are expensive, um, if you're having a new kid, usually like you're having baby showers and things like that, get someone to just ask for a gift certificates, REI to knock down that cost a little bit. Um, but if you plan on hiking with your kids, it works well. And at this point I've had it over four years. It's been up a bunch of different peaks and mountains. Um, it's got enough storage in it where you can put a bladder in it, or you, I had enough room to put like jackets and extra layers for us. Um, it works really well. So I wanted to shout that one out again. So Osprey Poco child carrier.

[00:30:23] Correct. Nice. I was meditating on Saturday with, um, with some friends and it was pouring the whole time at UNH. And, uh, I, I just use frog trogs. So I'm a huge fan of these. So frog trogs are like, you can get like their ultra light rain, um, pants and, and, um, rain coat for like $24. Usually you can get it at Walmart. You can order online. And, um, I think I, I prefer to use an umbrella whenever I can, if I'm hiking, I will not use

[00:30:51] a rain coat because it's just like, you get sweating, you end up sweating anyway and you get wet. So I prefer the umbrella. I don't think a golf umbrella is realistic for hiking in the white mountains. Probably a Katie. It's a little bit better, but it's too wide. But the, the, um, the smaller umbrellas are perfect for under tree line in the white mountains. And I recommend those over a rain coat whenever you can. Yeah. A hundred percent. Um, I think you have, do you have a gossamer gear? I do. Yeah.

[00:31:16] Um, I think our friend Steve has that and, and yeah, it, it, it, your mileage will vary with how effective it is. It's kind of a pain in the pain in the butt to use a big umbrella. We were okay on some of the trails. We had to take it down. Um, but when, you know, it's going to pour, especially like the temperatures were Saturday, not as challenge as like 55. Um, but, uh, Sunday it was like 45 degrees and rainy, which is like perfect hypothermia weather. It's like perfect, just cold, raw. Like, so we really were trying to stay as dry as possible.

[00:31:43] So the umbrellas again, we're priceless for what we were in and the conditions. Right. So it worked really well. All right. Well, slasher keeping you dry or keeping you sweaty. Yeah. Those, those frog tugs, they don't, they don't breathe. They don't breathe at all. That's the only, that's the only bummer. Yeah. They're perfect for steering still like the, the, the tailgating and stuff like that. Or if you're on a summit and you just, it's boring. Uh, but they're not great when you're on the, they have no breathability whatsoever, but for $24, perfect. Going to Disney world stomp. That's the move.

[00:32:14] Oh, God. Like those afternoon showers. Yes. Yep. Standing in line for three hours. Steering in line for three hours in the, in the heat. It's great. All musty. All right. So moving on here, you need stickers. We got stickers. So get your free stickers at mountain wanderer bookstore in Lincoln, New Hampshire or Spinner's pizza parlor in Andover. Tell them, you know, stomp. Yeah. Hey, we'll, we'll have them all at the, uh, full conditions too, for those who want them. We will. Um, and then you can get swag at the bonfire shop.

[00:32:43] Choose between our super popular hoodies, classic or V neck t-shirts. Uh, the color selection is great and they are priced to move. So help spread the word about slasher and represent today. And then if you want to give us money, we will take your money. Um, you can donate to slashers, buy me a coffee. So stomp likes that. Uh, donations help us pay for web hosting distribution and, uh, stomps going to buy a new umbrella. Yeah. Hell yes. I need a new one actually. It's true.

[00:33:12] So, and you can also become a monthly supporter. There's a little check box that you can make your donation repeatable every month and then we'll never let you cancel. Mm-hmm. Oh, um, excellent. Hey, hold my bed. It's time to find out what Mike and stomp are drinking on this week's beer talk.

[00:33:46] And then this is the part of the show where we talk about what beer we're drinking. I'm not drinking any beer. I'm still, I'm, I'm, I'm extending my, my field sober October and I'm just drinking water, Nick. Really? Excellent. Um, I just have a polar seltzer, but I did want to shout out two specific breweries that we went to this weekend. Um, number one was Bissell brothers in Portland, uh, which we stopped at the way up for lunch. Um, and we picked up some of their four packs. They were really, uh, tasty food and really tasty beers.

[00:34:14] Um, and then we went to Atlantic, uh, brewing company, which was right in bar Harbor. Um, we went to the one on main street. It looks like they do have another location, but, um, they also had very tasty beers. So, and they had a, we played some, did they had all different games. They had like a barrel of monkeys. They had Jenga. Um, so we had some fun doing that while we're having some beers. We tried to play Jenga with Ryland. Um, she didn't want to play that. She wanted to play with the monkeys. I remember the barrel of monkeys. Is that a game? How what's the game of it? I just remember hooking the monkeys together.

[00:34:44] It's funny you say this cause I argued with Ash about this and I'm like, I don't think there's a game. I think you just link the monkeys together. But apparently the object of the game is to link as many monkeys together without breaking the chain of monkeys, which to me seems like the same. Like, I don't know if it's while you're standing up or that seems like, um, that seems discriminatory towards short people. It does. It does. It does. I feel like Peter would always win the barrel of monkeys game if you played with Peter. Yeah.

[00:35:14] The object of the game is to be the tallest person so you can make the most. Not to call, not to call Peter out, but he was just the first person that came to mind. Anytime tall, the subject of tall comes up. Peter's there. I knew we should have gone left back there. Stop. Don't worry. I know it's this way. I've got a feeling in my gut. Uh, are you sure you're not about to have a bowel emergency? Uh, totally.

[00:35:44] We got this. But I just blew out my hip. Fell down that gully with my 40-year-old micro spikes. Suck it up, Stomp. It's 4pm. We're at 3500 feet. We got nine miles back to the parking lot. Your leg may be broken. We got no cell connection and we can't feel our fingers. But we're finishing all of my list tonight. By the way, I need some water. I'm empty. I would if I could see what I'm doing, but my headlamp batteries are dead. You gotta be kidding me. What a chump. This is the last time I hike with you.

[00:36:13] Pshh. Ha. Whatever, mister. Do you know me? I have a podcast. Pshh. Whatever. Let's find out what Mike and Stomp have been hiking. Stomp, have you been doing any cycles up well sticky or anything crazy? Uh, no. Nope. I haven't. I've been, so this has been the worst busiest month I've ever had.

[00:36:41] So I'm looking forward to getting past full conditions and getting back into it before the snow falls. But, uh, this weekend was my birthday. Monday it was anyway. So I overdid the Mai Tais. Mike, I gotta take the title Mai Tike. Yeah. I gotta take the title back. That's fine. So I had a few of those and, and this is funny. Today I went to the dentist and, um, they jacked me up on 2000 milligrams of Cephlaxon, which is an antibacterial because of the hip replacements.

[00:37:10] So that of course does a number on your stomach. And, um, I went to work after they did a deep clean. So my face was numb and like, like drooling on myself trying to talk to my patients. So tomorrow I have to go back tomorrow morning for the second half. Like, oh my God. Good luck. What a week. Well, donate to buy me a coffee so we can, we can buy stomp more Mai Tais. So he can keep his crown. So, you know, all right. 57. How old are you, Mike?

[00:37:41] 54. Oh, damn. 54. So you're the oldest elder statesman. I guess so. We look good. We look good enough in our 50s stomp. I don't know, Nick, what your opinion is, but we're okay. You guys look pretty good. My mother-in-law was who trims my hair. Uh, generally she's kind of like my hair person. She used to be a hair stylist, uh, in her past life. And she likes to let me know how much gray hair she can see coming in on the side. So she's like, oh, you get a lot of gray coming in over them. I'm like, thank you.

[00:38:11] Thanks, Lisa. Thanks. You look, you look, you look marginally. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, you look significantly younger than the rest of us when we all get together, Nick. So you can clearly tell you're young. I would. So. I just look older than the rest of you. I feel like something would be wrong. Something went downhill really quick. Right. So sometimes I go on Facebook. Oh, by the way, did you guys? Oh, go ahead. Have you guys seen Dave in person yet? Uh, I mean, I saw him up a grapid notch. His post AT frame? No, no, I haven't seen that. Oh, you did. Okay.

[00:38:41] I saw, I mean, I saw him on the AT. Holy moly. Yeah. He's, he lost a lot of weight, man. He's, he's gaining weight slowly, but. Mostly a beard. Yeah. Very, very slight. We'll bring him back bigger and better. We'll build him bigger and better than before. All right. Um, all right. So now I guess that's it folks. So we're going to go right into our, um, oh, no, no, it's not a lot of We have future plans here. So I have no future plans. I'm hiking this weekend.

[00:39:08] Uh, I, you know, I'm doing some trail maintenance in my brother's farm today, uh, tomorrow. Cause we got the day off, but Nick, you're getting out, right? Yeah. I think I'm going to try to, um, as text our group and texting back and forth with Peter, uh, separately. And I think we're going to try to hit the tries for fall and Peter wants to hit the full killer. So I think we're in. I've done it. Is it, it looks like you've done it. Have you switched? I've not done it before. So yeah. The switch back. Yeah. Yeah. Just a switch back and you head back up in the woods. So, um, cool. Yep. Straight shot.

[00:39:37] Is there a canister up there too? Or there was, there was when I did it. Um, but yeah, it's, um, pretty steep getting down to it. And when you can't get back to the trail, it's a very steep back up. Yeah. Unless you plan on just going dipping down trail from there. Yeah. We're going to, we're going to do like car spot, pine bin, and then Sabadee. I'm hoping, I don't think the river crossings this time of year will be too much of an issue. Not fine. Um, and then depending when I finished this, maybe I'll find my way over to a horse farm or something, but we'll see what happens there.

[00:40:07] Yeah. I'll say, I'll text you the address if you're, um, I don't know what time you're heading over there, but, um, yeah, I'll text you the address. Swing by if you're interested. Um, but that's it. So we're going to go into the segment here. So guys, the, um, Bear Brook Podcast. So it was nice enough for them to have reached out to us. Um, so Jay, we've got, um, Jason moons of the segment coming up here. So he is the senior reporter and producer for New Hampshire public radio and the host of Bear Brook.

[00:40:32] Um, and this, this podcast, I mean, this is blown up and we're on it to have him on, but he's going to talk about season three. So season three is like a, a very interesting case. And it ties into a lot of what we talk about. Sometimes it would like the Alzheimer's and dementia and elderly walk off. So we're going to go into that and Jason can tell a little bit more about the season and then we'll, we'll come out the other side.

[00:41:14] It's time for slashers guest of the week. Very cool. Very cool. All right, Jason, welcome to, uh, the slasher podcast. Thank you for having me. All right. We're feeling a little pressure tonight cause you're, you're a real professional. So we have to, we have to be on our a game here. No, no, no.

[00:41:40] I get to decide, I get to write and script and painstakingly decide what I'm going to say in my podcast. So talking, you know, just off the cuff, that's you're the experts here. Okay. All right. Well that sets me at ease, but, um, so let me, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to build you up a little bit here and do an intro here. So we're excited to be joined by Jason moon. Jason is a senior reporter and producer for New Hampshire public radio.

[00:42:05] He's the host of the groundbreaking true crime podcast, Bear Brook, which has returned for season three. So we're mostly going to focus on season three here when we talk with Jason. Um, and this season's focused on the investigation of the disappearance of Jay Hickey, a beloved Christmas tree farmer, um, that was suffering from dementia. He vanishes from his small New Hampshire town. Um, and his, his wife, Patty never reports him missing.

[00:42:29] So Bear Brook season three, a private matter is available on all major podcast platforms and via the Bear Brook podcast website, which we'll link to in the show notes. So, so welcome Jason, I guess to start off with, if you could just give a little bit of brief background on yourself for the listeners. Yeah, sure. Uh, so as you said, I worked for New Hampshire public radio and for, I've been there since 2015.

[00:42:51] And in 2018, we published the first season of the Bear Brook podcast, which was about an unsolved cold case in New Hampshire, where, um, a couple of barrels with human remains were found just outside of the Bear Brook state park in Allenstown, New Hampshire. 2018, the first season of Bear Brook comes out. And, and that was the first time we had done, uh, a big serialized podcast as a station.

[00:43:21] And to my surprise, everyone's surprise, um, a lot of people listened to it. And then, so that kind of eventually became my job was to just look for and do these documentary style podcast series where I'll, I'll generally spend at least about a year working on a series. And then we release it as like a, you know, three part or a five part or eight part, uh, podcast series.

[00:43:49] And so that's what I've been doing for the past seven, eight, nine years. And just recently we are putting out the third season of the Bear Brook podcast, which is, you said, is about, um, a very, very odd case of a missing man in Epsom, New Hampshire, whose wife never reported him missing. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's interesting. And we'll talk about that.

[00:44:13] Um, quite, I want, I want to kind of, the way I would describe this season is if you, um, if you took any typical New Hampshire town and, and put it like a shook it out like a rug, you would, you would have these cast of characters kind of fall out. And so it really puts you in the, uh, New Hampshire feel here. But I think the, I did want to ask you before we get into, um, season three, the original season of Bear Brook. I don't think that, you know, people talk about like technology advances.

[00:44:41] Um, and I, I don't think necessarily that investigative, um, genetic genealogy and the DNA advances that were highlighted and, and, you know, the, um, Terry Rasmussen's case in uncovering, um, him as the, um, perpetrator of these crimes. I think it was one of the very early cases that was solved using this technology.

[00:45:03] And I, I don't think that people even today realize how impactful and significant, um, this was as a crime solving, um, technique. So I don't know if you have any comments or thoughts or reflections on that. Yeah. Yeah, no, no, it was, that's exactly right. And it was one of the very first cases to be solved with genetic genealogy, um, even before the, the Golden State Killer case, which was sort of the one that I think for a lot of people was the first one they heard about.

[00:45:31] Um, and it, it was kind of a test case, a proof of concept that this stuff could work. Uh, and it was a case that had, you know, for over 30 years, investigators, both inside and outside of police had tried everything they could think of.

[00:45:48] They, you know, from gumshoe detective work to other types of high tech forensics, like radio isotope testing, where they looked at the, you know, the bones of the victims and try to identify certain isotopes that you can associate with certain geographic areas. Very like cutting edge stuff that they're usually using on, um, like archeological remains. None of that stuff had, had led to a breakthrough.

[00:46:15] Um, but then, yeah, it, it, it really came from this, um, kind of hobbyist community of, uh, genealogists who first started to use genetic genealogy where, you know, you were, people were spitting in tubes and mailing it to ancestry.com. Um, and at first they started to identify people who'd been adopted, who wanted to find out who their bio parents were.

[00:46:40] Uh, some people got really good at, at using the, the genetic results and finding, you know, very distant cousins and then building out the family trees and identifying who, who that their parents were.

[00:46:55] And then at a certain point, someone, you know, it clicked for someone, oh, if we can identify parents, uh, of adoptees this way, what's to stop us from identifying human remains, uh, you know, unidentified perpetrators, um, where, you know, we have maybe DNA of who we think committed the crime, but we don't have a match for them because.

[00:47:19] You know, the traditional law enforcement DNA database is comprised of, uh, people who've been convicted of felonies. And so if, if they haven't already convicted a felony, their DNA is not in the database. Genetic genealogy just throws open the doors because you don't need to find a match. You just need to find, you know, their fifth cousin. Yeah. Yeah. And it turns out we have hundreds of fourth and fifth cousins, so it's not actually that, uh, hard to find us.

[00:47:49] So, uh, yeah. And that, and that really, um, the bare brick case was one of the kind of first handful, uh, to, to prove how powerful that technique was going to be. And I used to try to keep count after that was solved, you know, how many cases were getting solved with genetic genealogy. I quickly gave up because it's now in the hundreds of, you know, human remains and, and perpetrators who've been ID'd with that technology.

[00:48:17] So it really has changed how these kinds of cases are investigated and especially cold cases where they've tried everything else. So it's a great new, like last ditch option for folks. Right. Right. And I think that in, in relation to this latest season, one of the things that is interesting is that there's so many of these gene and John does out there that, um, people were investigating and finally identifying them.

[00:48:43] And one of the discoveries that I think people probably had assumed, like, oh, these family members are out there looking for their lost family members. There's no way that, um, these people could be missing and not have family members, um, that are looking for them. But what's, what's really been uncovered is in many, many of these cases, the common assumptions around like the, the, the, the, the family members would constantly be looking for them is not true. It's just, they've, they disappeared.

[00:49:08] They had an estrangement and, um, they just, for whatever reason, slipped through the cracks. Yeah. It was one of my first questions going into that story, you know, how could a whole family go missing and no one had report reported them missing. But it turned out it is actually a lot easier than you might think.

[00:49:29] And especially, I think in a time before our time of phones and social media and constant connectivity. Um, but I, you know, basically what happened was these families, uh, just kind of grew apart from, from each other became estranged from parents and siblings and what have you. And, and, and so no one thought they were missing.

[00:49:56] They just thought, you know, they moved away and they're, they don't want to hear from me. And that's a great, it was kind of the Terry Rasmussen's sort of MO was to, you know, meet someone, uh, estranged them from their friends and family and sort of set them up as if they had kind of voluntarily fallen off the grid.

[00:50:21] Not so much, uh, you know, kidnap them off the street, but I just kind of, they just sort of fade, you know, out of the lives of their, their friends and family. And that's why, you know, he was able to do it, to do it, um, so many times. Yeah. Yeah. It's really, really scary to think that, uh, people are out there that have that capability, but, um, it is, it was, I mean, I think Beardbrook, I remember the first time I listened to it and I was really groundbreaking.

[00:50:49] Did you, how did you handle the explosion of popularity? I mean, you clearly, I'm assuming you thought you had something when you recorded it, but you can never prepare for that. Yeah, no, I was, um, I was, uh, stunned, um, that any, you know, I thought I was, it was just going to be sort of a brief experiment and I would go back to kind of my normal job at the end of it. Um, and I'm still kind of, you know, a little shocked by it all.

[00:51:19] Um, but I, you know, I'm grateful that it's, it's allowed me to keep doing this kind of work because, you know, one of the things I learned, one of the things I took away from that first season was how much. This kind of, uh, this kind of, the format of this kind of storytelling where you can take the time to go in depth and really, uh, you know, tell a story in, in the detail.

[00:51:43] And, uh, with the, uh, but the giving people that, that kind of, uh, close look at a story over, you know, say a six episode arc people, it really resonates with people. People are really hungry for that, which is kind of interesting when you think about, you know, there's often a lot of discussion of like, oh, our attention spans are getting shorter.

[00:52:08] And we all just want to be like scrolling and like quick videos and stuff, but there's, that's true probably. But there's also this thing happening with, um, you know, serialized podcasting and narrative, narrative, uh, you know, documentaries that show that people are also hungry for. And, uh, you know, I, you know, I, you know, I did a lot before the first season of bare brook.

[00:52:35] I did a lot of reporting that resulted in like quick stories, you know, daily news stories and that, that sort of thing. And, uh, you know, I'm lucky that I'm able to keep. To keep, um, doing that kind of reporting and storytelling. Right. Yeah.

[00:53:02] People want to go down a rabbit hole sometimes and they get long drives. So the long form podcast works well. So, um, the latest season, um, season three, a private matter, um, it, it deals with, um, family estrangement. It deals with, um, dementia and Alzheimer's. One of our, one of our annual fundraisers, we, we do a hike for, um, the fundraising for the Alzheimer's association. So we actually have the Alzheimer's association on quite a bit.

[00:53:29] And I, you know, we all personally have been touched with, um, family members that have dealt with dementia. So I do understand the difficulties for family members, especially when there's estrangement and, uh, one spouse is left to care for the other. Uh, but can you talk about that aspect of, uh, you know, we don't want to get, we want the listeners to all go and listen to the, um, podcast for themselves. So not a lot of spoilers, but can you talk about the aspect of, of that piece of the story?

[00:53:58] Yeah, it's a, it is a big aspect of the story and it's, uh, in a way it's not too different from what we were just talking about with the, with season one. Where, you know, family, every family is complicated. Um, people aren't maybe in touch as much as they wish they were, uh, or have good reasons maybe to not be in touch the way people on the outside might expect a family to be.

[00:54:32] Um, you know, um, you know, the mystery and the way that people can disappear. And in some cases, you know, it take quite a while for anyone to, to figure that out, which was, uh, a factor at play here. So it, um, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a sad and kind of serious part of the story.

[00:54:56] I mean, the whole story is sad and serious, but it, um, it, it even more so than the first season, it felt like this was a, I don't know, a theme or something, you know, there was, we all kind of found ourselves thinking about it as we were, uh, me and my colleagues, as we were looking into this. And it felt like, oh, I think people will also like, um, hear, hear that thread and pull up that thread.

[00:55:25] And, and, and it's true, you know, when I was talking to other people about this story and now since it's starting to come out, you know, a lot of people have, will have told me about how they related the family dynamics at play in the story to their own family.

[00:55:41] And I think, you know, in some sense, that's kind of the whole point of, of these, these sorts of stories, you know, we're, we're looking at, we're looking at what's happening in someone else's life, but it's also, you know, ultimately it's about all of us.

[00:55:55] And, and I think when we see, you know, when we see our own lives and our own families and other families, you know, if it, if it spurs a conversation in some family about, you know, what to do when grandma or grandpa, you know, it gets to this point.

[00:56:18] Or if it maybe just inspires like, you know, someone to, to text their brother or, or mom that they haven't talked to in a while, you know, that, that, that's the kind of impact that, uh, that I'd be lucky to, to have come from a story like this.

[00:56:34] Right. And the crux of the story is, and it's, you know, on the surface, you think like, this is impossible, but essentially this is a, um, uh, local Christmas tree farmer, local, um, worked on the, I think that he was like the, the zoning approver for, uh, building. And, you know, his wife was sort of a local politician that was involved in the, the local social services area. So they were well known within the community had run for election and whatnot.

[00:57:02] Um, so he goes missing supposedly after they investigate, they think it's as long as 10 months had gone by without anybody having seen him. And the explanation that, um, law enforcement got from, uh, his wife was, was not exactly assuring at this point.

[00:57:20] And it, you know what a parallel to me, Jason was, it was very similar to her and listeners can check this out, but I, I got a very, even though it's like a, a mother child situation, it got a, I got a very Casey Anthony vibe from her. Hmm. Hmm. When I listened, it was like very likable, able to answer questions. But then when you tried to pin, pin something down, it got very, uh, difficult.

[00:57:45] Yeah, it, it has been in a way I'm like relieved and glad that the story is coming out so that other people can have the same experience that I've been having, listening to those police interrogations and the answers that, uh, the missing man. His wife was giving, because it's really hard to do them justice by just describing what she's saying.

[00:58:09] It's really, you really have to hear it to understand how kind of hard it is to wrap your head around where, yeah, as you're saying it is, it's not a convincing story. And yet she seems to earnestly believe it. And it, it's just hard to make heads or tail of.

[00:58:31] And, and that is, you know, I think that's the experience the, the police had, the investigators had, um, the family has had other folks in town who've talked with her have had, I've had personally. Uh, and it's just like this, yeah, this, this, this knot, uh, of trying to puzzle through like what, what's going on? What is, you know, does she truly believe this or she, is she lying or is she confused?

[00:58:59] Is she, is it some combination of the things? It's, it's really, and I still, I still, I, I gotta say, I, I, I'm not really sure. I'm not really sure what, where the answer lies. Right. And so four episodes have been released. And then this, this upcoming episode, I think it's released. So we're recording on a Tuesday. It's going to be, by the time this comes out on Friday, the fifth episode will be available. And in that episode, you actually do get a chance to speak with Patty. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:59:27] Which, you know, I was a little surprised that, that I was able to, to be honest. Um, it's another kind of, you know, unpredictable, uh, part of the story. I kind of, I didn't necessarily expect that she would want to talk with me, but she does and, uh, is happy to. And actually we talk a lot, but despite, yeah, many, uh, conversations, uh, I, perhaps left.

[00:59:55] More confused than when we started, uh, which is part of what kept me so interested in the story over these many months working on it was. I just had, I just could not figure out what was going on and could stop thinking about it. And I, and I just sort of had a sense that if I am so, uh, puzzled and, and, and also captured by this mystery, I think, you know, listeners would be too.

[01:00:26] When you sit down and so you see, it sounds like you've got the luxury of like really diving into some of these stories. When you sit down with your team, try to figure out, you know, what, where are we going with our next season? What case are we going to focus on? How do you determine when there's enough there to say like, we, we've got something where we want to, we want to move forward. Yeah. It's a really good question.

[01:00:48] It's, it's tricky to answer cause there's not, it's not exactly like a bright red line or, uh, a recipe, but one of the, one of the kind of green flags is that sense. I was just talking about where, you know, if, if I've been kind of looking into something for, you know, let's say a few months and I'm still interested and I still have questions and I'm still learning new things. That's a good sign that, that, you know, there's enough here.

[01:01:14] Uh, and it also really helps that, um, when a, when a story kind of leads us to, um, bigger questions, you know, I have, I always think about like, I don't want to be doing true crime storytelling, like just for the sake of telling stories about crimes.

[01:01:37] Um, to, you know, for me, I need, I need there to be a kind of bigger, like, so what to the, to the story? Like, is this about some kind of like systemic issue about the way, uh, you know, criminal justice system works or is it about this, you know, new forensic DNA technique that's going to change how these kinds of cases are investigated?

[01:02:01] Um, or in this story, you know, those bigger reasons were a little bit, I don't know, squishier and kind of more, um, abstract, but it, but it was, you know, it clearly raised questions about dementia care.

[01:02:18] I think especially in rural spaces, uh, family estrangement, as you mentioned, um, and that, that kind of, those sorts of questions I thought, you know, were like kind of rich areas that we could, that we could dig into. So that was another, another good sign. Right. Yeah. And it's interesting. There's not a, it's kind of a weird area with the, with the spouse, spouse, spouse relationship.

[01:02:44] And especially when it dimensions starting or it's involved, like there's, it's, it's a kind of a gray area around the duty of care. So there's not a black and white law on the books in New Hampshire that addresses what the responsibility is when you have these walk-off cases here. So, um, it's, it's really difficult to, to find that line on where there might be negligence versus what you get. There's a moral duty and then there's a legal issue.

[01:03:11] And I think that the moral duty here certainly is questionable, but the, the legal piece of it is more difficult. Yeah. That's a good way to, to, to describe it. Yeah. Moral versus, versus legal. And it was one of the things that I was surprised. It was a big surprise to me and kind of kept me interested in the story too, was, was this idea that it's not a crime to not report your spouse missing, uh, at least in New Hampshire.

[01:03:38] Um, and it, it sort of, you know, kind of stopped me in my tracks, but when you, you know, stop and think about it, you know, I guess I can see it. It's hard to imagine how you would write up the law in a way that wouldn't, you know, I don't know, the spouses who are in a fight, you know, or, or who are willingly, you know, separating, but still, you know, it would just get messy in terms of how you would kind of write that law.

[01:04:07] But, um, right. We, this whole situation is kind of a weird, uh, outlier that falls in between kind of several cracks in the system, so to speak. Right. Right. The, um, I guess the other thing I did want to talk about is in episode four, you actually get into a lot of detail about the, there was finally, there was law enforcement finally got involved.

[01:04:37] And, um, I think the timing of the, the discovery that he was missing was not optimal for activating search and rescue and stomp. You can probably talk a little bit more about this, like how difficult it can be in like the fall and winter seasons to, to do these searches. But, um, they, the, there was a search that was conducted, um, within, uh, about a half a mile radius of this, uh, Christmas tree farm.

[01:05:01] So I won't give away a lot of the details, but the, the law enforcement got enough of a lead where they felt confident that there was a, it was a target area that they could look for in general. Also from a walk-off behavior. And generally we'll see there's anywhere from probably 10 to 15 of these, these events that get, make the media where there'll be enough of a, a search for somebody that's an elderly walk-off and people will investigate.

[01:05:27] But I think in this case here, there was a search and, uh, a search conducted in a half mile radius of the Christmas tree farm, but there was, you know, you talk about it in the podcast, the difficulties and challenges in the environment and the time that's gone by. Yeah. Yeah. Um, right.

[01:05:47] There were so many factors that made it, um, made it so difficult, you know, the, the terrain being one, um, uh, but then mainly as you, as you said, uh, the delay in, in reporting the, you know, the 10 month span really, I think put a, you know, the searchers at a huge disadvantage.

[01:06:09] Um, and, you know, I, I had my eyes opened, uh, you know, and I'm sure you guys know more about this than I do in terms of, you know, how, just how hard it is to find somebody in the woods. Um, you know, let alone after that much time had passed.

[01:06:28] Um, but it's been, you know, the fact that no remains have been found, it has made for, um, you know, it's, it's very unresolved for so many people in town for, you know, family and, and so on. It just adds to the kind of sense of mystery around this whole thing that they, that they can't find anything. Yeah. Yeah. Stomp, you've, I mean, you've been on these searches before helping out looking.

[01:06:53] So what, what is, what is that like when they pull, pull you in for a day to get out there and do searches in these areas? Um, is it, did they, what kind of instructions do they give you and what do you want to look out for? Well, I mean, generally you're set up into various groups, um, within a perimeter.

[01:07:13] Um, there may be several teams that are tasked to encompass a given area, area, like in this case, um, you know, scattering a particular geography. Um, if you have a moving target, I mean, there's a lot of data out there about the percentages of people that are found within a particular radius over time. And, um, so all that is mapped out.

[01:07:38] Um, initially they will send searchers out to hit high probability areas, whether it be like a little shed, a cabin, a culvert under a road, things of that nature. While groups are formed to, uh, be assigned to specific regions, um, to search. And, uh, in a case like this, it sounds like it would have been more grid searches with numerous volunteers looking in a particular area.

[01:08:03] Yeah. You're right, Mike. Uh, there are a lot of, um, unfortunate cases of dementia, uh, people that just walk out the backyard and go roaming around. Sometimes they're just within feet. Um, you know, there's that, that ancient memory that a lot of these folks have, and they may go to their favorite fishing hole or whatever it may be and come walking back the next time.

[01:08:24] But, um, other times not. So, um, there have been cases up here, searches where it has been in the winter and, you know, times of the essence. Um, but again, that aspect of a moving target makes it incredibly, uh, complicated. So you don't quite know exactly where somebody may be. Uh, so yeah, very challenging. And Jason, the, um, law enforcement, and I guess you also talked to somebody that's an expert in search and rescue.

[01:08:53] And he sort of broke down, um, some interesting aspects and, and I'll let the listeners check it out. It's in episode four, but, um, some of the behaviors, like he did call out to say that, um, typically like the path of least resistance is typically where you'll find people that will go. And the difficult part is like, there's so many bodies of water and so many areas that you could fall into that, um, it would be difficult to find somebody if they did wander off.

[01:09:19] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The site. Yeah, there was right. There's so many places to look, especially, um, the, the area where the farm is, it's just kind of surrounded by woods on all sides.

[01:09:31] And, you know, every kind of obstacle you could think of for, for someone with dementia to, to get hung up on. And, you know, that was, that was a big surprise, or, you know, one of the kind of more fascinating things I, to me that I learned in all this was, was this idea that there are, you know, statistical profiles of different types of, of lost people. And, um, I really, I sort of inhaled that book, um, by Robert Kester, um, lost person behavior.

[01:10:00] And he was just fascinated by this idea that, you know, a missing hiker will behave on average in different ways than, you know, a missing skier or missing camper or a missing person with dementia. And to be able to put numbers to, you know, 75% of the time we find them within X, you know, radius and 50% of the time we find them within, I guess it's attractive because it gives, especially in a situation like this, where we just don't know what happened.

[01:10:30] It gives some kind of, um, sense of likelihood of, you know, where he might be. Um, but even within that radius, it's still a huge, huge task, you know, uh, Kester's data said that, you know, within it, in terrain like New Hampshire's, um, lost people with dementia, 75% of the time they're found within 1.2 miles of where they were last seen.

[01:10:56] So 1.2 mile radius, you know, it's, it's sort of on the one hand, it doesn't sound like that, you know, 1.2 miles, you can, you can walk that easily. But then when you, you know, think of it in a, in a, in a, in a total area, and then you think of the terrain that you'd be looking in thick woods.

[01:11:15] Uh, and I didn't really get, you know, an appreciation of this until I went out there myself, but, you know, a lot of the woods are, are so thick that you can't just walk through them, you know, in a, in a systematic way. And, uh, you know, you have to follow kind of, you know, you can go where you can go. So, um, and so it makes the, the idea of searching just, I don't know, a lot more daunting than it might sound even for an area of that size. Right.

[01:11:44] Especially as time goes by. I mean, it's one thing to, you know, be within a couple of days of someone missing, but once you've got upwards of 10 months or maybe even longer than it, it becomes like you've got wildlife and you've got foliage, you've got water that's, that's come through with snow. And it's, it just becomes a much more difficult. So, uh, but I, I found it fascinating, Jason. And I, you know, the, um, as we record this, like I said, the fifth episode will be out on November 11th.

[01:12:12] So, uh, this, that episode, you'll be able to actually speak with, um, with Patty and Jay, Jay's wife. So, um, I found the, this season and I've, I love all three seasons and I find the podcast fascinating. Thank you. Appreciate you coming on. And, um, anything else you want to do as far as plugging the, to the listeners? No, that's, that's, uh, no, I'm just glad, glad to be here. Thanks for having me. Awesome. Very good. And then, uh, stop Nick. I don't know if you have any questions for Jason before we let him go.

[01:12:43] No, nothing here. I've not checked out the most recent two seasons. So I'm definitely going to get on that because it sounds fascinating. So, uh, that really appreciate the first season. And like, uh, Mike mentioned, my wife kind of does a lot of true crime stuff and has gotten me in that, uh, sort of vein. And I really, it's one of the first ones I actually listened to myself and I very, very much enjoyed it and enjoyed the, uh, the way that you sort of, um, the narrative driven portion of it. And then also facts and it's, it, you just do a great job explaining everything and keeping it very interesting. Thanks.

[01:13:10] I really enjoyed hearing your motivation for it too, as well, which like you said, you can tell, um, it comes from a place of like, you're trying to sort of teach people and educate people a little bit rather than just sort of be like, Hey, this case happened. And here we go, here we go. I really appreciated that angle. I think it's really fresh. So thank you. Thanks. I appreciate you saying that. Thank you. Yeah. And I would say the other thing too, is I don't know how you do it, but, uh, and it's probably kudos to this, probably a bunch of people behind the scenes, but for however you do it, there's a, it's a very New Hampshire aesthetic.

[01:13:39] And I don't know why I just envision like the, you know, you'll go into the local gas station. That's got a little, uh, coffee shop or something. And then you'll see these characters sitting there. You just envision like, so the conversations with the law enforcement too, in this, like they're just so like matter of fact, like, you know, there's nothing getting by these guys. Like they've seen and done everything and nothing shocks them, but it's just so interesting to hear, uh, hear them talk. Okay. I'm glad to hear that. It sounds like where it's from. Yeah. Right. Exactly.

[01:14:09] So, but, uh, but thank you so much. And like I said, we'll, uh, we'll make sure that we get all of the, uh, the links on our show notes and, um, thank you so much for your sitting down with us. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Thank you. All right. Take care guys. All right. Thanks. I know. All right. So that's it. So that was pretty interesting, right? Stop. Mm. Good stuff. Yeah. Complicated story. Yeah, it is. True crime's not my thing, but, uh, yeah, it's fascinating.

[01:14:39] It is. So if I, if you ever go missing stomp, I'm going to, I'm going to demand, demand to see proof of life. Yes. That's a good call. Yes. If I ever go missing, I'll be at Fugaki probably. You'll be at the corner. It's a safe bag. My ties. So. It was five my ties deep and he wandered off. Yes. Yeah, but we'll have, after this, we'll have a pact to make sure that if any of us ever go missing, we have to get proof of existence somehow.

[01:15:11] That sounds good. Stomp will be. Does your wife? Mrs. Stomp will be. Is your wife asking for that? One of us will. Mrs. Stomp will be pushing you around like weekends at Bernie's. Right. But, uh, but it is an interesting story and, um, I'm looking forward to getting, uh, listening to the, um, to the final episode of the season to, to see what, um, the conversation is like with the wife. Same. Mm. Fascinating. Excellent. All right.

[01:15:41] So until next time, we'll, uh, we'll see you at, uh, is this it or are we going to be back before full condition stomp? Uh, this is it unless we throw up a, uh, so you wanna. So we'll probably have something. Or something like that. We'll have something, but we got to prepare for full condition. So, uh, until next time, we'll see you sometime. I don't know when. Probably next week. Excellent. We'll see. Bye. See ya. All right. See, we did it.

[01:16:10] Episode this time. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed the show, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podbean, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you wanna learn more about the topics covered in today's show, please check out the show notes and safety information at slasherpodcast.com.

[01:16:38] That's S-L-A-S-R podcast.com. You can also follow the show on Facebook and Instagram. We hope you'll join us next week for another great show. Until then, on behalf of Mike and Stomp, get out there and crush some mega-heats. Now covered in scratches, blisters, and bug bites, Chris Staff wanted to complete his most challenging day hike ever.

[01:17:06] Fish and game officers say the hiker from Florida activated an emergency beacon yesterday morning. He was hiking along the Appalachian Trail when the weather started to get worse. Officials say the snow was piled up to three feet in some spots and there was a wind chill of minus one degree. And there's three words to describe this race. Do we all know what they are? Holy crap! Here is Lieutenant James Neeland of New Hampshire Fish and Game. Lucinda, thanks for being with us today. Thanks for having me.

[01:17:37] What are some of the most common mistakes you see people make when they're heading out on the trails to hike here in New Hampshire? It seems to me the most common is being unprepared. I think if they just simply visited hikesafe.com and got a list of the ten essential items and had those in their packs, they probably would have no need to ever call us at all.